66 Continental Brake System Investigation

[Mike]

Well if they're that bad they must have been replaced already and if they're original and held up for 50+ years they cant be that bad. Checking them will tell if they're worn out and need replacing or not.

[TonyC]

Possibly, but not necessarily a guarantee, even after all this time. There is one easy, visible way to determine whether the lower ball joints were replaced: Check how they're attached. If the lower joints are riveted on and have no grease fittings, they're original-original (and very risky). If the joints are bolted into place and have grease fittings, or at least holes in the bottoms for grease fittings, they are replacements.

They really were that bad. I can remember as a kid hearing the squeaking of the joints from my grand's Man-Of-War, but as a kid I just thought it was one of those things that was what it was. Fast-forward to 1990, I replaced them per serious recommendation from two sources (and the aforementioned swaying symptom), and the squeaking (and swaying) was gone. Fast-forward again to 2022, and I started to hear a similar squeaking from Frankenstein. Although I had replaced the lower joints in 2006 due to that disconcerting swaying symptom, those were second-hand joints from an organ donor (but they were replacements themselves, and they held up surprisingly long–16 years and a good 100 kilomiles). Luckily, I had the foresight to buy new lowers in 2019 or '20, so I was ready for that. When I took the old joints out, they flopped about with almost no effort placed on the studs.

Even Consumer Reports as far back as 1971 gave these suspensions poor reliability ratings. I learned the reasons for those poor ratings were the lower ball joints and center link, which on top of their questionable build quality were also sealed components and thus subject to entropic effect more so than similar maintenance components...and those soft gearbox spacers, which strained the components excessively and compromised the cars' handling attributes. With those flaws taken out, these cars can maneuver far better than one would expect from a car with the turning circle of a Kenworth.

---Tony

[1Bad55Chevy]

I don't consider myself a professional mechanic because I do not make a living out of my tool box but rather the cars I sell on my lot. My wife and I typically buy/repair/sell around 100 vehicles a year so I twist more bolts a month then most do in their lifetime. One thing I have never understood was the "when it needs it" mentality specifically on wear items on a vehicle. At what point do ball joints/tie rods/idler arm/pitman arm/u joints "need" to be replaced on a 60 year old vehicle? When there is excessive slop in the steering wheel? When the toe is so far off its burning the inside of the tires off? When there is do much play you can shake the spindle in the joint?

If you remove the ball joint or tie from the spindle and you can spin the stud with your fingers (regardless if there is slop in the joint) it needs to be replaced. If the dust boot is broken it needs to be replaced. If the area around the joint is wet from grease it needs to be replaced. Imo these items are dirt cheap and should be replaced regardless of wear or mileage on the vehicle.

If you have ever been in a vehicle that is running down the road between 45 and 70 and the ball joint/tie rod/drag link/u joint has come apart you will have a different outlook on life. Yes I have experienced all those things, the worst being a tie rod on a 2006 mega cab cummins at about 80 in crazy Dallas traffic..... no it wasn't my truck and no I wasn't driving...

[1Bad55Chevy]

Possibly, but not necessarily a guarantee, even after all this time. There is one easy, visible way to determine whether the lower ball joints were replaced: Check how they're attached. If the lower joints are riveted on and have no grease fittings, they're original-original (and very risky). If the joints are bolted into place and have grease fittings, or at least holes in the bottoms for grease fittings, they are replacements.

---Tony

Non greasable ball joints.... no way in hell would I trust one of those that was 60 years old....

[TonyC]

Exactly! They were bad enough 30 years ago, imagine now.

---Tony

[Mike]

If they're squeaking that's a good indication that it should be replaced. If they're not and they don't have any indication of wear or physical damage they're still good.
If they're non greasable yes ditch them.

[1Bad55Chevy]

If they're squeaking that's a good indication that it should be replaced. If they're not and they don't have any indication of wear or physical damage they're still good.
If they're non greasable yes ditch them.

I have a 2010 silverado 1500 RWD crew cab 148k miles on my lift right now that makes zero noise and the mud terrains on it are wearing perfectly. If you jack up the lower a arm there is nearly a half inch of movement on the outside of the tire all because of bad upper ball joints. Yes the dust boots are still intact on this unit. What do you use as indicators of worn suspension components?

[Mike]

I don't consider myself a professional mechanic because I do not make a living out of my tool box but rather the cars I sell on my lot. My wife and I typically buy/repair/sell around 100 vehicles a year so I twist more bolts a month then most do in their lifetime. One thing I have never understood was the "when it needs it" mentality specifically on wear items on a vehicle. At what point do ball joints/tie rods/idler arm/pitman arm/u joints "need" to be replaced on a 60 year old vehicle? When there is excessive slop in the steering wheel? When the toe is so far off its burning the inside of the tires off? When there is do much play you can shake the spindle in the joint?

If you remove the ball joint or tie from the spindle and you can spin the stud with your fingers (regardless if there is slop in the joint) it needs to be replaced. If the dust boot is broken it needs to be replaced. If the area around the joint is wet from grease it needs to be replaced. Imo these items are dirt cheap and should be replaced regardless of wear or mileage on the vehicle.

If you have ever been in a vehicle that is running down the road between 45 and 70 and the ball joint/tie rod/drag link/u joint has come apart you will have a different outlook on life. Yes I have experienced all those things, the worst being a tie rod on a 2006 mega cab cummins at about 80 in crazy Dallas traffic..... no it wasn't my truck and no I wasn't driving...

If it's checked properly it won't get to the point that there slop in the steering wheel or abnormal tire wear or any other situation where there are parts flopping around ready to come loose. If someone let's their car get to that point that's neglect and sadly there's an awful lot of people who do that who think that as long as they change their oil every once in a while they're good. If its a part that wears it'll slow signs it needs to be replaced long before it becomes a problem.
When it needs it is how vehicles are maintained. Otherwise what, you're going to replace everything in the front end once a year because it can wear?
You replace psrts on a 60 year old vehicle when they've worn out and need to replaced just like any other age of car. Bulbs tires, shocks, springs, switches, wiring, brake lining, brake hoses, wiper blades etc etc etc all wear items. Most people don't wake up one day and randomly decide they're going to replace all that.

[Mike]

If they're squeaking that's a good indication that it should be replaced. If they're not and they don't have any indication of wear or physical damage they're still good.
If they're non greasable yes ditch them.

I have a 2010 silverado 1500 RWD crew cab 148k miles on my lift right now that makes zero noise and the mud terrains on it are wearing perfectly. If you jack up the lower a arm there is nearly a half inch of movement on the outside of the tire all because of bad upper ball joints. Yes the dust boots are still intact on this unit. What do you use as indicators of worn suspension components?

You just said it. You know it has a bad ball joint if you've inspected it and it's what's causing that movement at the tire. Unless they've specified a tolerance and it's still within it but that seems pretty unlikely.

[455hota]

Thanks Everyone for the informative replies!! Ball joint info is very useful and important. I will try and verify their condition in the next day or so. I did a quick peek of the lowers and yes they are held in with bolts, and have grease zircs. So definitely they have been replaced at some point.

I will also check the strut rod bushings to see their condition as well.

I really need to drive the car a bit and just get an overall handling / suspension performance evaluation. But i needed to get brakes working first. Hence the reason i started in on them first.

Front calipers update: i had 5 seized pistons, so i have split the calipers and popped out all 8 pistons. There was an un-godly amount of rust colored brake fluid sludge in the caliper bores. I soaked and cleaned them in mineral spirits, glass beaded the caliper halves, cycled them through the ultra sonic cleaner, and then blew them completely out with air. The bores are very nice, no pitting. The pistons cleaned up very nice as well, no pitting on them either. I am soaking the retaining rings and pistons in EvapoRust to remove the rust from the inner piston pockets. Depending on the result, maybe another ultra sonic bath may be in order. The caliper bores and the pistons will have a thin coating of a dry film lubricant applied. This seals the surfaces microscopically to minimize the brake fluid / water absorption / rust issue. I used this process on my 67 Tbird calipers. I learned of this from a very knowledgeable Tbird professional.

Here are the parts cleaned to date:

[TonyC]

Nice job on the calipers! Also good that you confirmed the ball joints; hitting them with a grease gun at regular intervals should keep them going for a long time yet, barring collision damage.

I don't want the discussion to get heated, so I'll leave it with this. Different makes of suspensions will express different symptoms: A 60-year-old Lincoln will not necessarily give the same symptoms as a 10-year-old Chevy truck...but the consequences of not recognizing and outright disregarding such symptoms is very similar. E.G.: My friend's '95 Thunderbird did not make any squeaky noises at all before it broke a lower ball joint; it made a creaking noise, for about a month, before it finally snapped on her then-boyfriend who was driving it at the time of the break. Replacing suspension and steering components is not a regular-maintenance job; there is no set interval, which is why it's important to get to know the "language" your vehicle "speaks." The only regular maintenance involved in suspensions is a lube job; or, at longer intervals, replacing shock-absorbers. Aside from those two things, you aren't expected to do any more, short of repairs–which is what replacing springs, control arms, related bushings, ball joints, tie rods, racks-and-pinions (if you have those), and other links and parts fall under. I have always said, get to know your car; that's why.

---Tony

[Lee]

I thought this might be a good place to post the procedure for determining whether your ball joints are worn out. It’s nice to have a dial indicator, but you can probably eyeball a quarter inch on the lowers.

Just one small correction (and I can only directly speak for ‘62), but I believe the factory joints actually came with small plugs that you could remove, and then install a Zerk fitting (which the old-timers called ‘Alemites’ when I was a boy). Those factory parts were tough if you kept them lubricated. My ‘62 came to me many years ago from the original owner with all the original steering and suspension parts, good records on lubrication, and I stretched those all out well over 100,000 miles. Finally the drag link gave up the ghost, and that gave me the excuse to just go through and replace everything in the front end.

That of course was when it was still easy to get US made Moog and McQuay parts. If I was doing it today, I’d have to swallow hard before replacing a functional factory part with a Chinese copy.

[TonyC]

I must say, that's the first time I've seen a reference to cutting the rivets and bolting new ball joints onto the lower control arm, aside from guidance Ron Baker provided from long ago. My shop manuals hint only at removing and replacing the entire control arm, which naturally is overkill unless the control arm itself has additional wear or damage to it.

I just wish that reference lifted some details from these kits, like the torque limits for the replacement bolts, which I would think have to remain constant regardless of kits used. My ball joints had no reference material included; in fact, the bolts that came with them were too short to use, forcing me to get new ones from the local hardware store. I applied between 35 and 40 ft.-lbs. of torque to them, which was only a best-guess from what I tried to remember of Ron Baker's guidance over a generation ago.

---Tony

[Mike]

Replacing the lower ball joints including the torque specs is noted in the 1961 service manual. You got me curious so went and looked:

[Lee]

The only step I deviated from is #8. It is much easier in my opinion to just use a small air, or right angle grinder to whip the heads off the rivets.