A/C upgrade to modern refrigerant?

[rkraj]

Hoping someone can help with some AC advice. My 1986 Towncar has AC that is barely cool, not cold enough at all. When I called a local garage they seemed doubtful the parts are available to upgrade to the more modern refrigerant. In fact he never called back.

Wondering if anyone knows a shop in the Detroit area that has upgraded an older car to the modern refrigerant. Please help.... my all black TC is sweltering!

[LithiumCobalt]

Any competent AC shop should be able to handle this. I converted my 1987 over to R-134a. I replaced the drier, all the o-rings and the orifice tube and then had a local shop charge it up. All in for under $200.

[papawayne]

Ditto...the first guy only admitted that he didn't know how to do it in his own wishy-washy way. Wayne

[LithiumCobalt]

It’s really a pretty simple job to change o-rings and orifice tube. This, of course, assumes the compressor is still good. I let a shop do the actual charging of the system. Possible I just got lucky that my system worked.

[rkraj]

Local shops saying "sorry.. we don't do that work." Even from Northern Air that is an AC expert shop. They all say they don't have the old style Freon. They are referring me to Canada where they say they still have Freon.
Unfortunately I'm not mechanically inclined to change o-ring etc, and can't get the old freon. I am at a loss here where to go.

[LithiumCobalt]

You don’t have to use R-12, which is what it was originally equipped with. Although I like originality, a car that is used as a inexpensive hobby car or daily driver, I just need things to work. R-134a is an OK substitute and works. Just about everyone does these conversions. Be prepared to spend some bucks to have it done right, though. The oils are not compatible and anything that has had a leak needs to have that addressed before recharging. That involves charging the system with dye and tracking it down. If it’s just the o-rings, those can be had in compatible form for very little money. Anything that has had a leak or been open to atmosphere should a new drier installed. All of the parts and labor could run several hundred dollars, but it can certainly be done. Sticking the R-12 would avoid oil compatibility problems, but you still have to address the leak. I had no issue getting a AC shop to service my R-12 equipped ‘67 here in Fort Wayne (about 250k population). I would think there should be no trouble finding a similar place in Detroit area given the population. You just haven’t found the right place yet.

[Mike]

The freon Canada thing is one more excuse. Like Nick said it sounds like these places don't want to do the work. In a way you can't blame them, if it doesn't work the way you expect or some other 34 year old part fails within a year or two and it stops working they've got an upset customer to deal with.
Try smaller garages. They're usually more likely to work on older cars or repairs like this that a lot of bigger places don't want to spend the time on.

[vashtsdaytona]

this topic reminded me of a question ive long had. people often say the oil inst compatible. is the oil and the gas in the same chamber? is the oil, which is to lubricate the compressor mechanism right? maybe also anti corrosive? so is that in its own spot in the compressor? and the gas is in a separate section? so its about not mixing those 2 oils but you could change the gas without changing the oil? when they put a vacuum on it to pull gas and check for leaks, does that also pull the oil with it? I have seen some videos where the mechanic will say, "we dont need anymore oil in this system, so we will turn that off" after they have pulled a vacuum and went to recharge it. they pushed some buttons and i guess that means it didnt inject oil? so to me that means the vacuum didnt pull oil with it?

so could you say leak out your gas your r12. but not leak oil. fix gas leak, and just add 134a without changing oil/other components? just need the threaded adapters for the r134a fittings?

just something i have always wondered about, i dont understand that part of the system and its just accepted as fact about the compatibility but if they live their lives separately why would it matter?. if they are intermixed how can you take just the gas out when pulling vacuum?

[Mike]

No, the gas and oil both go together. That's why they make a big deal about compatibility and why there's usually an oily residue where the leak is. Which is sometimes more noticeable then others.

[action]

fix gas leak, and just add 134a without changing oil/other components? just need the threaded adapters for the r134a fittings?

just something i have always wondered about, i dont understand that part of the system and its just accepted as fact about the compatibility but if they live their lives separately why would it matter?. if they are intermixed how can you take just the gas out when pulling vacuum?

The oil and gas are never truely separate. Even in a York/Techumseh compressor system there is gas in the crankcase with the oil. I forget what compressor was used in the 80s Lincolns. And my guess is the move was towards a rotary compressor oil mixed into the gas all throughout the system. Not a reciprocating compressor that had a crankcase with oil in it,

The old oil and the 134a mixed over a long time will create an acid. Then acid will dissolve the system internally. Most of the time it will take out seals and wear parts in the compressor first. With the compressor failing the system stops working and the user stops using the system. It may take a year or so and really depends on how good the compressor was to start with

To prevent that the system should be flushed and then new oil and new gas added. Not hard necessarily just some more stuff to do when it is blazing outside.

>>>>>Action

[TonyC]

Aren't there also issues with the receiver-dryer/accumulator and the condenser? I seem to remember conversion sources stating that those components also have to be refitted for PAG-134a conversions. If that isn't the case, please let me know.

Personally, I'd still prefer to stick either with the original-original or with Canada's patented Duracool...but politics make both those options hard. However, since A/C work is inherently expensive, I don't see too much trouble adding a few extra bucks after all the parts have been replaced for the original stuff.

---Tony

[Wixomhead]

I bought a 71 Mark w/ 85K 4 years ago in unusually original and well maintained condition - but the A/C blew warm. (just needs a charge, lol I love that expression)

After talking to a big A/C-only shop up her in Mass., and after flushing/running a pressure test (all OK), they advised to charge with R-12/dye and monitor and I took the ($150? $200?) risk. I asked about doing the extra work to replace O rings etc and they said nah - don't bother. I was willing to pay for the effort so trusted they knew what they were doing.

4 years/10K later it still blows cold. I am overdue for a check up / ultraviolet light (guilty as charged) but looks like I won this round.

[stevedrums]

when it comes time to tackle this massive project on my car, i'll be buying this book. it comes highly recommended from other forums

[action]

Aren't there also issues with the receiver-dryer/accumulator and the condenser? I seem to remember conversion sources stating that those components also have to be refitted for PAG-134a conversions. If that isn't the case, please let me know.

---Tony

Good point!

The receiver dryer, specifically the drier which has a desiccant bag, should be replaced. Everything else is OK to reuse if not leaking.
The desiccant removes any moisture that could be present. It will also act as a filter and trap some debris. That is not it's main function.
The desiccant is usually a porous bag with beads of desiccant inside that attract & hold moisture.

And the receiver dryer should be replaced every time the compressor is replaced. Again the function of the RD is to trap moisture and debris. If the compressor has worn out or broke, debris is supposed to end up in the RD for systems that have a RD.

>>>>>>Action