462 Crank driven power steering upgrade

[essenz]

I know there have been some posts here, but I was curious about anyone's experience with this kind of upgrade.

Some background, I'm looking to convert a 66 Coupe (462 engine), that does not have AC. It was originally an AC car, so I have all the parts, but the compressor was removed, and the belts were changed to just cover the water pump.

My crank driven pump is dead. So I can shell out $600+ and get a replacement and hope it lasts.

Or.... I can source a similar era belt driven pump for a similar sized vehicle, i.e. like a power steering pump from a Ford Galaxy 500 or after market.

The PSI numbers match, so my understanding is the following:

1. I fabricate/modify the AC braket to hold the new belt driven pump
2. Get all the pulley's aligned, get new belts, etc.,.
3. Modify the power steering hoses, I may also have to fabricate a reservoir
4. Do I use Type F or the fluid called for by the pump? Will my steering box be okay with non Type F
5. With the crank-driven pump gone, will I have leak issues form the timing cover? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the timing cover has an oil seal behind the pump, if thats not enough to hold back oil leaks, I could mount a completly empty pump housing with just the two extra seals.

Look forward to feedback. I've heard about electric pump conversions, so maybe thats an easier route.

I can do metal fabrication, so that work I dont have issues with, I there is good hydralic shop near me that can make any customized hoses.

[frasern]

The timing cover seal goes around the rear lip of the pump, not the crankshaft. An empty housing would need to be lubricated inside.

[action]

A MEL block never had a remote mounted PS pump. Using a remote mounted pump (even from a Ford or Mercury) will require some fabrication to mount. Plus other logistics of space for the assembly. Other pumps will likely deliver the goods. Getting them installed will be interesting. Space or lack there of is the concern. There is a thread of some one that changed over their very early Mark III 460 from crank to remote. I would suggest a Mark III has more engine space than '66 Continental. And I have both vehicles. (Early 1969 Mark III had crank driven pumps. Later 1969 Mark III and all other 460s had remote PS pumps.)

All power steering systems of the era used Type F fluid. Changing from that can be done but why?

There are some Ford remote reserviour PS systems.

Period AC compressors (York or Techumseh) are fairly easy to find. These compressors had lots of non-Ford applications and have some demand for non- AC applications.

I have little experience with electric PS systems. My mother in law has had two newer Fords with that system. My understanding is they work for lighter cars.

Hope you are not considering this to save money

>>>>>Action

[LithiumCobalt]

I vaguely remember seeing 58 MEL engines with a remote power steering pump. Then the crankshaft mounted nonsense started. Even if you could find one from a 58, it's going to be ancient tech. Another alternative...what do you mean your power steering pump is dead? Is it beyond being rebuilt? The usual suspects charge $300 or so to do the job. A lot more palatable than paying $600 for one without a core. With the amount of work and customization that will go into remote mounting something that MIGHT work, I'd venture you'll probably exceed the cost monetarily as well as mentally than if you had just bought a good pump and swapped it out. For other ideas, you might try Facebook group Suicide Slabs. From my recollection, there is an electric power steering pump available that can be swapped in. If you're going for cost savings, though, I have no idea if such a retrofit would fit the wallet or not.

[essenz]

Yeah, my timing cover memory is dated, I did that chain swap like 15 years ago. Eitherway, the timing cover/oil leak stuff shouldn't be too bad to resolve.

Since my AC compressor is gone, I think I have plenty of room in that area, I would simply fabricate an adapter to mount the PS pump onto the existing AC compressor bracket.

So the PS pump from 60's Galaxy 500 would have also used Type F? Thats my leading swap candidate, the pump can easily be had (fully refurbished for $80 or so). I would imagine the pump specs are similar given a Galaxy 500 is similar in weight/body style to 66 Continental.

[action]

So the PS pump from 60's Galaxy 500 would have also used Type F? Thats my leading swap candidate, the pump can easily be had (fully refurbished for $80 or so). I would imagine the pump specs are similar given a Galaxy 500 is similar in weight/body style to 66 Continental.

All FLM domestic automobiles of the 1960s used type F or Type A fluid for the power steering. Both are compatible. Same for vehicles in the 1970 and may be into the 1980s.

As to if a Galaxie pump has enough to do the job for a Lincoln, I don't know.
If weight is the measure then a Continental of the era (61 to 68) comes in at 5000 to 5700 pounds (depending on model)
A 1965 to 1966 Ford Galaxie comes in at 3500 to 4100 pounds (depending on model)

Then there is steering geometry that has an impact on turning effort. Lincoln never had manual steering. Ford and Mercury it was optional. Steering wheel diameter has a factor as well. Would a change to a different pump pulley be needed. (Both Ford and Mercury had different pulleys for different applications)
If you are an engineer that data could be factored and understood. However it is beyond my skill set.

Action

[Solid]

Technically that should be Type A and Dexron. Type A was a whale oil based GM-specified automatic transmission fluid which Ford used in the Lincoln before they had their own automatic fluid developed, which they named Type F (for Ford). When those base components were being phased out, Dexron was developed by GM to perform like Type A but manufactured from a mineral base. Dexron II and Dexron III are later versions of Dexron, and are backwards compatible.

That said plenty of people run Type F without issue, including myself because I was misinformed at the time and can’t be bothered with changing something that works fine.

[TonyC]

Personally, I do not see that as an "upgrade." It's a conversion, not an "upgrade." But syntax aside, what the OP is thinking about is NO easy task. Possible, yes; anything's possible hypothetically. Practical? No. Cheap and easy? Hell, no. Not only do you have the issue of the timing cover having far too large a hole to merely ditch the stock pump, which is the only thing holding the front oil seal in place (yes, the '58, '59, and probably early-early '60 430s did have belt-driven pumps off to the side, thus the timing cover had a much-smaller hole for a press-in oil seal; good luck in even finding one to cannibalize parts from!!). There is the matter of the crankshaft itself. The shaft has two grooves in it for separate Woodruff keys: One for the crankshaft damper pulley, and a longer one that is meant to drive the pump...and it's that particular Woodruff key that is your metaphorical spanner in the works. You cannot install an older timing cover with that in place, it will grind up the seal before you even put the car in gear for the first time. Sure, you can remove the key, but the sharp edges of the groove will still waste the oil seal of an older-style cover, and even leak oil out through the groove itself. You have only two options at that point—well, three options:

(1) Try to fill in that groove somehow with some kind of metal filler and grind it smooth (not sure how or even if that could be done);

or (2) keep the long Woodruff key in place, cannibalize the pump for the center rotor sleeve that slides onto the key, then try to find or have constructed an oil seal for the older-style timing cover that will be just big enough to fit over that sleeve, to seal the oil in the engine. This option would be more-recommended, as the sleeve is also the sole spacer to keep the crankshaft damper pulley properly spaced for alternator and A/C belt alignment. Or maybe, you can have a sleeve fabricated to slip onto the crankshaft, as long as you have the correct dimensions (length, inner diameter, outer diameter).

Option 3 is to just ditch the whole idea and keep the steering system as originally designed. Personally, I like the idea of not having to deal with high-pitched squealing and a jammed steering wheel because the power-steering belt loosened or threw itself off. Granted, the Usual Suspects charge extortionist fees nowadays for rebuilt OE pumps—I mean, gimme a break, $700?! 'TA-LOCO, $700!! I remember when they were $400 or less! But I recently saw that RockAuto offers a rebuild service for these pumps for around $200, if you submit a core for them to rebuild.

---Tony

[papawayne]

I
Saw Red Green replace a carburator with a whole toilet on an old rerun last night. Anything can be done if Red Green can do it. Wayne

[essenz]

TonyC, isnt the rockauto rebuild just new seals and o-rings? The metal components inside that wear down have never been OEM re-produced, correct me if I'm wrong. A re-sealed worn pump still puts out less PSI.

As 61-67 Lincoln owners, we literally have to rely on a dwindling supply of original pump pulls form low mileage junkers. You think $700 is bad, what about in 15 years? These pumps will be $2000 by then, and lucky to put out 800-1000 psi. At some point these conversions will become a necessity to drive the car in the future.

The pump from a '70 Cont or Mark III looks good. I did have a few questions though for fellow owners of a '70, is the stock pulley the same groves as that on a 66-67 Continental water pump/balancer? I assume '70 pumps use Type F? Is their a filter? The pump housing/reservoir doesn't have a filter, was one ever included, inline maybe on the return?

I'm going to go ahead and purchase a pump and start fabricating a mounting bracket where my AC compressor used to be. For now, I'll just use my old pump as parts to seal of the timing cover.

[action]

All power steering systems from the 1960s and 1970s used the same fluid type.

There is no PS filter in 1970 and later Mark Series or Continental. Or really any FLM applications.

Model year 1969 460 engine was the only year to use a crank mounted PS pump. All subsequent years of the 460 were belt driven.

Belt width -
All 65-68 Lincolns used 15/32"wide belts for all uses except the AC compressor
1970/71 Continental and Mark III used a 1/2"wide belt for power steering
That is only a 1/16th of an inch difference

>>>>Action

[TonyC]

Essenz, I really don't know what RockAuto's rebuild entails, as I haven't used it; I only learned about it myself about a week ago. It could be only seal replacement for all we know, which really isn't adequate. Granted, there are no real rebuild kits available for the commoners like us, but the Usual Suspects have to have access to such kits in order to offer rebuilt (not merely re-sealed) pumps. Of course, such rebuilds are industrial secrets for them to keep, like the ingredients in a Hand Grenade . I got a rebuilt pump about two or so years ago when the price was still between $500 and $600; so far it is holding up. The trick, though, which many people may not be aware of, is NOT to hold the steering wheel at either extreme-lock position for any longer than one second, lest the fluid pressure overloads and blows out seals....then, with that fluid leak, the innards will eat themselves up from running dry (the trademark groan). Something else I've learned, to keep the pump from being an ordeal to remove, is to put some axle grease evenly on the crank and on the inner part of the sleeve; that will help to prevent the sleeve from distorting from heat and fusing to the crankshaft.

Anyway, as I did say in my first post, yes, it is possible. But if you are on a budget and don't have a whole lot of industrial equipment on hand (my scenario, with my big dream of reproducing and upgrading passenger-side mirrors), you are engaging in an exercise of sheer frustration. Just trying to find the components from a pre-'60 430 is a near-Quixotic quest, and then there are the matters of the Woodruff groove and the required spacer for the damper pulley, both of which I already elaborated on. Now, if you have that kind of access and money to burn (we are talking at least four figures conservatively, and the first figure may be higher than a 1) and the desire to do it just to say you did it, then by all means go for it. If not, you'll be better off paying that extortionist three-figure amount while you can. Another possible option: Robert DeFrang mentioned in a different thread on this issue that a firm known as LaFore Lincoln parts in Colorado also rebuilds these pumps. He spoke highly of them; however, he didn't mention how much such a rebuild costs with them.

---Tony

[bd94s10]

essenz, are you on Facebook? Several guys have done this and have documented it in the Suicide Slabs group. Someone is also working on kits so you could search there or chime in on an older post. Another guy I found recently did this and posted pics on Instagram - I'd have to find it though (if I do I'll post a link in here for you to see). Works really well once done.

I've never thought about doing it only because I have 2 good rebuilt pumps (1 on each car I own) but I can see why someone may want to do it.

If you haven't already check out my free Lincoln post title Lincoln Addict. I might just hit on this subject in the future! Listen via your favorite podcast app or here: https://lincolnaddict.podbean.com

Thanks,
Jason
Lincoln Addict Podcast

[burnski]

one already exists. Call Carl’s Automotive @ +1 (972) 617-9400. its around $1300. heres the full details: https://www.facebook.com/groups/suicide ... 738068901/

[LithiumCobalt]

OMG. $1,300? People complain about paying the price for original equipment at less than half that rate. I guess the even higher priced stuff is for the “junk all the original stuff” builders.