Issues with '67 turn signal

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ekm330
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Issues with '67 turn signal

Post by ekm330 »

I read the recent post about the other '67 in which the turn signal lights came on but didnt flash. My issues are a bit different.

First, a little history which may or may not help. The left signal worked fine (F/R and dash indicator light) two weeks ago. The right (F/R and dash indicator light) still work fine, but once you step on the brake, the flasher stops and the light remains constant until you release the brake. (It's done this since I bought the car several months ago.)

Recently, I replaced the bulbs in the left rear tail light. They were 1154 bulbs with smaller filaments. They call for 1157, which is what was in the right side already. However, with both tail lights now having 1157 dual filament bulbs, the left is much brighter than the right. (I suppose someone put the dimmer, smaller filament 1154 bulbs in the left side to "match" the brightness of the right side.) The brake and turn signal still worked on the left, just the parking lights were brighter. Also, the F/R and dash indicator lights worked fine, even when the brake was depressed.

The car sat for about two weeks while I replaced the water pump. Got the pump put back together and took it for a spin today. Right side does like it always did - will blink F/R and dash tell-tale light, and stays contstant when the brake is applied. Will blink again when the brake released. Since reading the other post, I noted where the "clicks" were coming from. When the right signal is engaged, the relay behind the glove compartment clicks, as well as two different relays under the hood - one in the black and white plastic relay box by the master cylinder (six relays in there, I beleive), and the other under the black cover toward the front of the car, adjacent to the a/c compressor (there are two relays under the black box, the bottom relay clicks with the right signal on).

The new issue is now the left rear tail light doesnt illuminate or blink at all with the left turn signal or hazard engaged, but the front still does. No dash indicator light, either. I hear the click behind the dash at the glove compartment, but no clicks from any of the relays under the hood. When I engage the hazard lights, all but the left rear tail light flash, and both turn signal indicator lights on the dash illuminate.

So, what would cause the left tail light to be brighter than the right while using the same type bulb (properly installed, since they only go in one way) AND for the left rear tail light to not illuminate when the left signal or hazard is engaged when it was working fine two weeks ago? Also, what would cause the right side to work fine until the brake is applied? It must be a relay (or relays) of some sort, but I dont have a wiring diagram and no tester :? . Even if I had a tester, I dont know which ones to test. I dont know if both of the relays behind the black platic cover by the a/c compressor are for turn signals, and I dont know which of the six relays in the black and white plastic box by the master cylinder are for turn signals....
Last edited by ekm330 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:52 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Issues with '67 turn signal

Post by toddallen »

First place I would start is making sure all connections and especially the grounds for the rear tail lights are nice and clean. Common problem, and will make all kinds of weird symptoms.
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Re: Issues with '67 turn signal

Post by ekm330 »

is there a separate grounding wire at the tail light assembies? How are they grounded?
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Re: Issues with '67 turn signal

Post by Dan Szwarc »

ekm330 wrote:is there a separate grounding wire at the tail light assembies? How are they grounded?
Taillights get their ground from the bumper when they are bolted to the bumper. If any lights at all work in the bumper, it is not a ground problem.

Since all the lights get their feed from one common wire, I recommend inspecting the wire inside the trunk looking for a cut wire.
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Re: Issues with '67 turn signal

Post by toddallen »

My recommendation was based on similar problems with this era tail lights that Mark Hoag had, read this thread on things to check for:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14294&hilit=tail+light+rebuild
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Re: Issues with '67 turn signal

Post by ekm330 »

I just inspected the trunk wires. No cuts. But like I said, the brake lights and tail lights work, just no response anymore when the left turn signal is engaged, although the front left works and blinks fine.

Two clicks (from two relays) under the hood when right signal engaged, no clicks under the hood when left engaged.... only the click from the relay over the glove compartment.

I will read the other thread suggested by toddallen...
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Re: Issues with '67 turn signal

Post by toddallen »

That does sound like more of a relay problem, you may want to swap the left and right turn signal relays and see if this changes things.
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Re: Issues with '67 turn signal

Post by ekm330 »

toddallen wrote:That does sound like more of a relay problem, you may want to swap the left and right turn signal relays and see if this changes things.
I found a schematic in the 1967 shop manual on page 19-6. I found one turn signal relay (must be the one up by the front next to the a/c compressor). There are three wires that go to it 493, 494 and 694. Then they go into what I assume is a plug connector, then to two different sets of either plugs or block connectors of some sort. I dont know which is for what side, or all the components involved to swap one side for the other.

Also, I checked the bulb holders in the tail lights and but one are fine. The one that's not so fine has one terminal that doesnt have much spring left in it. Other than that, all seems well.

However, I stuck a mirror behind the car and discovered that when I depress the brake, only the right side tail light illuminates. I also hear a "click" from the front fender relay when I depress the brake. There is definitely something wrong here and I think it's some kind of relay. Also, where is the flasher? I felt around up inside above the glove compartment and found a relay with two terminals and some other wire from somewhere else grounded to one of the retaining screws. I thought there was supposed to be a relay AND flasher behind the dash?
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Re: Issues with '67 turn signal

Post by tsa »

I think the problem is in your turn signal switch and not a relay problem. You have confused your relays which is leading you and others to think it is a relay problem.

1967 Turn Signal Relays - one above the glove compartment - only provides power to the circuit - not causing you issues as you have the right side working. One on inner left fender with 5 others - this one only provides power to the indicator lights in the dash - again not a problem as this also works you say.
1967 Flasher - located above glove compartment - this is what causes lights (both dash and signals) to flash - your lights flash so this is working.

1967 Speed Control Brake Holding Relay - I presume you have cruise control as you have two relays up the front by the AC Compressor. The one you hear ticking is the brake holding relay. I dont have my manual with me as I am away so forget what the other one up there is called but both are for cruise control. As a test just disconnect this one as it wont hinder the operation.

As your rear lights are both brake and signals, the wires do go through the turn signal switch. Somewhere the wires my be shorting to cause this or the switch defective.

I would go through the schematics and work out what it is meant to do in each operation and use a tester to test. It is a bit of a complex system so without the schematics in front of me I forget the entire operation.
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Re: Issues with '67 turn signal

Post by ekm330 »

Since my last post, I have gone and looked under the hood again and you are right about the two relays in the front. When I was out earlier, it occurred to me that the two relays in the front would have something to do with the speed control, since they are attached to the speed control unit by the a/c and have a couple of wires going to it. That would account for the click when I depress the brake. However, the relay also clicks when the right signal is engaged, but stops when the brake is applied. A short in a wire or faulty switch would very likely account for this "mixup" in the system.

I think I can rule out the relay above the glove compartment and also in the relay cluster by the master cylinder, since they DO function. However, the system is really confused. When the lights are on, the left rear is twice as intense as the right (as though it were brake lights). When the brakes are applied the right side brake lights (2nd filaments) illuminate, but nothing from the left. So if everything (brake lights, turn signal lights and running lights) all run through the turn signal switch (which I assume is in the steering column), that would be a logical focal point. Does it matter that the right signal doesnt cancel after completing the right turn? I guess I should see what's involved in accessing/testing/replacing the turn signal switch...
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Re: Issues with '67 turn signal

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Re: Issues with '67 turn signal

Post by ekm330 »

Thanks for all the advice. I just ordered a new switch from Lincoln Land ($145.00 for the switch with tilt wheel.) Now I'll have to figure out how to remove the steering wheel hub and steering wheel. I read in the manual that I have to somehow disconnect the cruise control wires before unscrewing the turn signal lever. (My cruse button is perfect and I hope I dont mess it up.) I also read I need to mark each wire for identification upon re-install (perhaps I'll take a photo for good measure, too.) And I read I need to tie a fish line to the old wires before pulling them out. That way I can secure the new wires to the fish line and pull them back down the column. This sounds like a big PITA, but hopefully it solves my light issues.

If anyone has done this and can offer some hindsight advice on "how to" or what you would have done differently in retrospect, I'm all ears.... well, eyes :)

-Kent
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Re: Issues with '67 turn signal

Post by ekm330 »

OK, I'm aggravated... Everywere I read "you must remove the steering wheel...", "first, remove the steering wheel...", etc. Nowhere can I find HOW to remove the steering wheel. Mine is 99% flawless. Not a blemish or crack in the wheel or horn bar, and only a slight bit of the bright finish on the inner circle of the center hub is starting to come off. Needless to say, I dont want to just start prying or forcing and have something break. Soooo, what exactly is the procedure for removing the center hub? I assume once that's off all the retaining screws for the horn bar and big nut for the wheel is underneath...
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Re: Issues with '67 turn signal

Post by jsanford »

Twist the center pad to release the clips, it should twist pretty easy. Remove the backing plate and then remove the big nut. Make sure you mark the position so you can put it back on correctly. Might need a steering wheel puller. You should get a shop manual ;-)

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Re: Issues with '67 turn signal

Post by ekm330 »

jsanford wrote:Twist the center pad to release the clips, it should twist pretty easy. Remove the backing plate and then remove the big nut. Make sure you mark the position so you can put it back on correctly. Might need a steering wheel puller. You should get a shop manual ;-)

Jeremy

I have a shop manual. However, for replacing the turn signal switch it says "after removing the steering wheel..." with no instruction on how exactly to "remove the steering wheel". Also, all the posts I searched related to the steering wheel said "remove the steering wheel, then..." Hence my aggravation and question. Thanks for your reply. I assume the "twisting" you referred to to remove the hub can occur either clockwise or counterclockwise, since it was not specified.
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