Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I know

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Mike
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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by Mike »

I can understand the pickiness part on condition. Coming from a rust area I know first hand how a car can look good on the surface but be a complete turd pile not worth touching when you really start looking at it. A few years ago someone was selling one of my dream cars with low mileage too and I would have been good even at his asking price but he wasn't supplying any sort of proof of mileage or condition and because of work I wasn't in the position to fly out there on a chance. I've bought vehicles out of storage that were questionable and couldn't drive or even see that well so you had to be overly picky with it but the seller was aware of what you were up against and more then accommodating.

I can also understand a sellers side. Why waste a lot of time on a picky buyer who might not even follow thru when someone else will come along who is more then happy to fork over money with very little effort.

At least when it's not something you need you can take your time to find the right car.
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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by action »

Ebay (as much as I have problems with it) does use a feedback system. And BAT has some accoutability as well.
Whereas facebook and craigslist is almost the wild wild west.

The last two are almost a, hafta go see the car to make an offer. Sure the prices may be less, however from the listing smoke and mirrors are used from time to time. Unless you go and see the bloody thing, it is Forest Gump about chocolate!

I tend to stay away from fb for all advertisement. Several years ago I wanted a part for my Mark III. At least a half a dozen "sellers" flaked out of selling the part except one guy. And that one guy, I went to him to make the exchange. Fb and (Nextdoor) and several other media platforms want to get into the sales end of things. Start for free and make a go of it. If it works out then monetize selling.

The issue I have is non-professional sellers. The entire world knocks used car sales people. And yeah there are unethical salesmen. However it the world where everyone and their brother is encouraged to sell something and we have the platform to make that happen. Then people that have NO clue on what they are selling attempt to make that happen. Sometimes under the guise of it is old so it is worth a pile of cash. Should the prospective buyer ask questions, the answer might be it is old. Do you want to buy it now?

If I am buying a twenty dollar part I may be good with the poor description. At worst case I will resell it. If I am paying $20K I want something more than a half a dozen pictures and a promise the title is clear. And there is a significant amount of seller's that only have that.

It might be time to upgrade the type of sellers you seek. At least BAT and Ebay have some level of professionalism for buying at a distance. FB and Craigslist are more of sources I would use in the local market. And for that kind of seller, if I roll up with a wad of Benjamins that is far less than they state they want, after I have spent about 30 to 45 minutes with the car, usually the flash gets that seller to part with the keys. Or I walk and somethings that works for the dude that thinks he/she has the only ride in the market place.

The cost is more with Hemmings and sellers that actually do this for a living. And their standards are usually higher which comes with a higher price. But those guys are negotiable as well. Unless it is a consignment.

Action

(For the record I have purchased 3 vehicles on Ebay. 1 on Craigslist, locally. And one across county from the dealer's website. The last one is my daily driver!)
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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by UglyViking »

Oh I've looked everywhere. My daily routine at this point is open up my saved filter on autotempest, review if any new postings have somehow come up that I've missed from my craigslist, ebay saves. Then check classic.com for my saved search there, about 3-4 times a week I will do a manual nationwide search on facebook, and daily I check 4 different lincoln facebook groups.

I figure something like Hemmings is going to cost more, but I expect that generally the quality will be higher and I'll have less to worry about. I don't mind paying a little more for something that has had good work put into it, but a lot of the stuff with "fresh paint" is clearly a remarkably poor paint job. I saw a 66 pop up on facebook with a horrible blue vinyl interior that sold for just under 24k. I looked at the photos and outside of the shoddy interior work (you could see where they didn't finish wrapping and sowing the bottom of the seats) you could see the overspray on the paint and areas that look like they were bubbling.

I figure if I'm paying for a project I expect project prices. If I'm paying for something redone then I expect a certain level of quality, even if the paint isn't my taste. I worry about the body more than pretty much anything else. I saw a beautiful black 66 come up on ebay for like 44k a week or two ago. It got pulled pretty quick but was posted on a few places so I assume it sold. Sadly it had an ls swap and was bagged so it wasn't my cup of tea. I may go for one, or both of those items in the future, but I really wanted something "OEM".

I'll keep at it, just playing the long game.
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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by LithiumCobalt »

Price alone doesn't necessarily equate to quality. I've seen that even more so in the preceding few years. There are many asking a lot for cars that are polished turds. For big dollars, I am scrutinizing all of the details, just like you mentioned with the interior. If a car isn't right or has been hacked too many times, I move on to the next. It's not worth buying someone else's disaster. Let someone else waste their money on it.
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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by TonyC »

I agree with Nick there. In fact, I am just expecting that, when I finally receive my lifetime entitlement, I'll be putting in a lot of extra cash just ripping out the suspension a prior owner put in so I can go back to real springs and wheels. And that doesn't even factor in other mod disasters they may have tried. But I'll draw the line at structural hacking: If they chopped up the unibody to fit an engine that shouldn't be in there, I'll walk right by.

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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by UglyViking »

Well, wish me luck boys. I just pulled the trigger on this 66 (https://www.facebook.com/commerce/listi ... 343501182/) at least assuming something doesn't fall through again. It's a little more on the project side but I'm sort of excited since it allows me to do exactly what I want with it, although obviously at cost. Keep your fingers crossed for me. I'm hoping that I can get this built exactly to how I want and keep it under 50k of total added cost. It will never sell for what I put into it, so I will probably be buried in it.
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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by jtheye »

The link is not working for me..... I wanna see too! Don't worry, I think we are ALL either going to buried OR are already buried financially into our Lincolns. As soon as I get out of my hostage situation, I might just sell my house and move my family into my Continental to make me feel better. Oh how I wish I was more mechanically ambitious.
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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by UglyViking »

Well this is a bit late but I figured I'd update.

I paid almost $2,000 to have the car shipped from Cali to me, agreed to price of $10,750 with seller and I paid shipping and fees (escrow.com fee). After a long wait to get the vehicle onto transport, and a long wait to get the vehicle here I got it home and was pretty devastated. It as a much larger project than the seller lead me to believe. I've come to the conclusion that "no rust" doesn't mean no rust but beyond that I found all sorts of additional issues, from things like the turn signal not working, the engine running like garbage to minor things like the interior color having been changed from green to black, and even the paint color being blue when seller claimed it was black.

So, I was heartbroken. I was going to be into this thing 4k just to have it shipped back and forth across the country. I decided I'd start digging in and seeing how bad the damage was. I knew this vehicle wasn't going to be turn key and figured that it was better to have something that I'm rebuilding to not be original, than taking an all original car and making modifications. To be frank, if I found the "perfect" car I'd be pretty against making any modifications, and for me that is part of the excitement. Making minor, but somewhat noticeable changes to make it exactly how I want it. So with that in mind I started digging into the car to get a sense if I should keep it, focusing mainly on the body at first as if that was ruined then it was all over.

To my surprised the body was in excellent shape overall. A few rust spots, clearly a respray, but nothing major outside of rust where the battery tray is. I even pulled one of the door panels to check for interior bondo and found nothing. That was a great initial sign. Someone decided it would be cool to strip all the emblems and squirt some bondo in to fill, but beyond that I checked the entire car with a magnet and a stud finder and found nothing, checked interior in the trunk, nothing. Great! I know the body is straight and bondo free. Then it was onto the interior. Interior is a mess. I had planned to do some work on wiring as part of the project, but by god it's my first time seeing 1960s wiring and it will have to be updated. I'm going to try and rebuild one of the motors or replace it, and I'll swap door locks with electric locks and all that. Interior is going to need to be revamped anyway, and I'll prob do some light custom touches to it. I really like the door handles on the 64 for example, so I'll either swap to those or do the plates like the 67 has. Little touches like that will bring it into what I view as the perfect combination but I won't be wrecking a factory sedan.

Then came the engine. Guy had claimed it was running perfect, claimed he bought the car because the engine ran so good. First day I try and fire it up and nothing. Ok, it's a carbed engine, maybe it needs a few more pumps? Still nothing. Maybe I flooded it? Wait a little, still nothing. After about 20 minutes I decided to ping the guy, he tells me that I've got to keep on the gas as I'm starting it up and keep giving it fuel for about 10-15 mins while it warms up. He said "thats a quirky 60s engine for you", as if this is normal for any engine of the era. After finally getting it running, although it died a few more times, I was able to make sure it ran ok. Seems that the carb is likely in severe need of a service and that isn't to mention the fact that the guy had later claimed he let it sit for over 4 months without fuel stabilizer, hadn't ever replaced the fuel filters and couldn't tell me the last time the carb was rebuilt, if ever.

At this point I'm ready to cut my losses, I got a bunch of help from a local Lincoln guy by the name of Michael Raucci (not sure if he is on these forums) who has been a huge help in settling some of my concerns. I also got a bunch of help from the guys over on the suicide slabs group. I decide that I'm already into this thing for a minimum of 4k, the body is in overall excellent shape with almost no rust outside some surface rust here and there and I'm going to be repainting anyway so it's not that much to get it resolved. I had planned on the interior costs already, so again no major issue. Def more work than I wanted for sure, but I wanted a bit of a project so here I am. I worked out with the seller and we landed on $7,500, plus shipping and fees put me right at $9,500.

Did I overpay? Maybe a little, but I made the mistake of trusting rather than flying out so that's on me. On the plus side I've been able to register it and once I return from this trip to see family I'll have a bit of vacation time left over to get her into a safe drivable state for the summer and then the real fun begins in the winter. I probably won't really notice the amount I overpaid in the long run, and on the plus side I've got it now, so at least my wife doesn't have to listen to how I lost another one. Luckily for her I have moved onto the phase of telling her all the issues it has!

For anyone interested here are a few photos of her as she sits.
20210415_161207.jpg
20210415_160916.jpg
20210415_160925.jpg
20210415_161002.jpg
I've also taken a handful of pics and put them into this album for anyone that wants to look at the damage. https://photos.app.goo.gl/qv23kEmZ6cEqHyrD8

My current steps are to get the turn signal working, swapping a edelbrock 1906 carb, new air and fuel filter and possibly a pertronix ignition (I was told the MSD is an incorrect choice, still looking into it).

So long as I can get her onto the road, moving, and stopping!, safely then I'll be a happy camper.
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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by TonyC »

I'm sorry it was such a rough start for you. But at least your engine runs, which is more than can be said for mine! And the seats don't look bad at all, far better than mine.

Seriously, having been in your shoes save for spending $12Gs to get the car home, I can tell you a lot of things, good advice on your new adoption. I can see that car had been raped in its time and redressed to hide it, but nothing that can't be properly fixed...and that poor thing could use some love in its life while it still has life. I can tell you which mods should be done and which should not. Missing parts are all over E-Bay right now. And with the Forum's collective expertise on that year, especially mine, you should get to love the new family member.

---Tony
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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by UglyViking »

Tony, open to hear your thoughts and feedback on what mods should and should not be done. I am always open to hearing feedback and opinion.
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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by Mike »

It looks ok for what you paid for the car itself. Especially when you consider what prices you were willing to pay before. Look at it this way. You could have spent that 14-15k price and ended up with the same thing.

Have fun with it.
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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by action »

It has two fuel filters an the PO know when they were changed last

BTW the 1960s quirks do not include hard starting.

There are so many mods on the car. And it doesn't run well! The point of a mod is for improvement or betterment not for worse running. To me that usually says the vehicle needed maintenance and the owner didn't know what they were doing. So they installed what they knew instead of what the vehicle needs. I don't mind restomods. However if one goes there all of the design and engineering should be done so the vehicle works better. I have seen disc brake conversions that scared me. Would much rather have well maintained OE systems than a modification that wasn't pulled off so it worked better than the original.

On new to me cars I start the maintenance clock over by doing everything. So I have a starting point.
Change all fluids - oil, transmission, coolant and brake
Change all filters - oil, air, transmission, fuel under hood and in tank
Replace rubber fuel lines, at tank, behind inner fender and under hood, fan belts, radiator hoses and heater hoses and wiper blades
Replace spark plugs and those battery cables. The current cable ends wee for temporary use only - may be cap & rotor and cables
Repack front wheel bearings & replace hub seals
Inspect rear brakes, tires, all lights inside and out, exhaust system - repair/replace as necessary

If you are having fuel issues, inspecting/testing the fuel pump may be in your future. The design of this system is unlike any from the company in that era. The fuel pump is to deliver more fuel than the engine ever needs. With a return line back to the tank to take excess fuel. (Like a fuel injection system) If the fuel pump is not delivering that kind of volume, the fuel pump push rod has worn down or the internal rubber in the pump is leaking. That fuel pump was designed to be rebuilt not replaced.

After all of that you can get into the expensive stuff -
Like paint - looks like the paint is faded
All of the missing pieces - fender peak moldings, emblems, battery hold down clamp
The air cleaner - the factory one isn't as sexy, but it works a whole lot better in colder ambient temps than that one. (Not sure where you are located since your location is not in your profile) Did the seller give you the filter size?
I am pretty sure the fan shroud is not correct but better than nothing.
Eventually the timing set needs to be replaced and valve stem seals

The gold hood ornament is an interesting touch

Action
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2006 Lincoln Navigator Limited 5.4l 3V
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII 2DR Coupe Diamond Anniversary 4.6l DOHC, 4R70W, 3.07
1970 Continental Mark III Triple Black 460 4v, C6, 2.80 (Used for Woodward Dream Cruise or just generally stored in Michigan)
1966 Lincoln Continental 4DR Convertible 462 4v, C6, 3.00
1966 Mercury Park Lane 4DR Breezeway 410 4v, C6, 2.80
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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by rick »

Hi

So if I have this right.....and knowing me, I may have misunderstood - after taking delivery you contacted the original owner and told him that you wanted $3,250 of your money refunded because you believe you overpaid? .......... and he agreed to do so? If so, WOW. Why can't things like that ever happen to me? :grin:

I think you did pretty well and I want to congratulate you. I think for $7,500 dollars you received your money's worth. Neither you nor the seller could help the transportation costs. Simply the cost of doing business.

You mentioned in your introductory paragraph that you were devastated and that, "no rust" doesn't mean no rust........ yet when you later went over the car thoroughly it was rust free. I believe that getting our hands on any of these fifty-year old plus museum pieces and discovering that there is no rust or bondo is like finding a needle in a haystack and it certainly looks like you lucked out. I'm really pleased for you. I know it's been a long search for you but this car seems to me to be a keeper and a solid base from which to start.

I really think that a high percentage of the members on this Forum put a good deal of time, energy and when we can afford to "money" into the various facets of restoring these cars to whatever level each one of us is searching for: 1. engine rebuilding as required, 2. bodywork/paint and 3. interior restoration. I believe those three are part and partial to us all bringing our cars back to some form of their previous glory and it can be done either immediately (in this business the word "immediately" depends on the various tradesmen we use and their famous statement "You want it when???? comes to mind) :grin: or they can be done over a long period of time. It's meant to be fun and I really hope you enjoy this process and as you move along and please continue to keep us up to date. Appreciated.

Cheers

Rick
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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by UglyViking »

Gonna quote and add responses inline as I appreciate the depth of information here.
action wrote:It has two fuel filters an the PO know when they were changed last

BTW the 1960s quirks do not include hard starting.

There are so many mods on the car. And it doesn't run well! The point of a mod is for improvement or betterment not for worse running. To me that usually says the vehicle needed maintenance and the owner didn't know what they were doing. So they installed what they knew instead of what the vehicle needs. I don't mind restomods. However if one goes there all of the design and engineering should be done so the vehicle works better. I have seen disc brake conversions that scared me. Would much rather have well maintained OE systems than a modification that wasn't pulled off so it worked better than the original.
I agree with all the points you have made here. I had basically the same response to the seller, which is that just because it's old doesn't mean it should run like garbage. The idea that it has to go through all that starting process and it runs rough and is "quirky" isn't quite right. I'm assuming this is mostly a fuel and spark issue, but I'm gonna do the basics plus a little more (detailed inline below).

action wrote:On new to me cars I start the maintenance clock over by doing everything. So I have a starting point.
Change all fluids - oil, transmission, coolant and brake
Change all filters - oil, air, transmission, fuel under hood and in tank
Replace rubber fuel lines, at tank, behind inner fender and under hood, fan belts, radiator hoses and heater hoses and wiper blades
Replace spark plugs and those battery cables. The current cable ends wee for temporary use only - may be cap & rotor and cables
Repack front wheel bearings & replace hub seals
Inspect rear brakes, tires, all lights inside and out, exhaust system - repair/replace as necessary
I was going to start with fluids, filters, spark to start. Later I planned to do fuel lines (and possibly drop the tank and clean), hoses, etc.

Wheel bearings are also a good idea and hadn't gotten that far. Although the steering is rather loose (I can move the wheel from just past 11 to just past 1 before the vehicles starts to turn. I've not found it dangerous but it's def not super confidence inspiring.

Within the next 1 month
  • Fluids (oil, trans, coolant)
  • Filters (oil, air, fuel under hood) (in tank was new to me, I'll have to find that)
  • Replace lights that are currently out
  • New 3 port pump (PO had swapped in a 2 port pump as you mentioned so I've got one coming from Felix)
  • New Elderbrock 1906 carb
  • Pertronix ignition and coil to replace MSD
  • New distributor, plugs and cables
  • fix/replace turn signal (currently doesn't work)
By end of summer
  • Swap to dual reservoir brake master
  • new pads all the way around
  • brake fluid flush along with new lines where needed (figured I may as well do this as part of the dual resi)
Over winter - or next fall (depending on how quickly I decide to build the garage and how much of a hard time my wife gives me on space in the garage)
  • Engine rebuild kit
  • most likely have the heads surfaced and whatever else is needed as part of the top to bottom rebuild.
  • start rebuilding electrical wiring
Longer term process TBD.

action wrote:If you are having fuel issues, inspecting/testing the fuel pump may be in your future. The design of this system is unlike any from the company in that era. The fuel pump is to deliver more fuel than the engine ever needs. With a return line back to the tank to take excess fuel. (Like a fuel injection system) If the fuel pump is not delivering that kind of volume, the fuel pump push rod has worn down or the internal rubber in the pump is leaking. That fuel pump was designed to be rebuilt not replaced.
Agreed. I think that a combo of the carb being gummed up and the pump being dead along with old fuel and incorrect spark are all adding up here. The original fuel pump was designed to be rebuild, this current 2 port I'm not sure of but either way I'm swapping to a 3 port, at which point I'll rebuild when needed in the future.

action wrote:After all of that you can get into the expensive stuff -
Like paint - looks like the paint is faded
All of the missing pieces - fender peak moldings, emblems, battery hold down clamp
The air cleaner - the factory one isn't as sexy, but it works a whole lot better in colder ambient temps than that one. (Not sure where you are located since your location is not in your profile) Did the seller give you the filter size?
I am pretty sure the fan shroud is not correct but better than nothing.
Eventually the timing set needs to be replaced and valve stem seals
Agreed with that. I still have the OEM air cleaner, it was in the trunk. I'm gonna give it a clean and put it back on. I honestly like the look of the OEM cleaner anyway, at least more than the one that is there now. I've got a Wix filter on order.

action wrote:The gold hood ornament is an interesting touch

Action
Interesting is a nice way of wording it. It's also the same on the trunk, although it may not be apparent from the photos. I do not plan on keeping that, perhaps it's worth something to someone but honestly that will come as part of the exterior paint and interior finish work.

If any of the items I've listed in my flow aren't correct, or you think I should do something else please let me know. I am 100% going to swap the carb to the edelbrock for 100% sure. It's just a better carb than the previous carter carb and parts are easier to find. I've got nothing against the carter but since this car is far from a "numbers matching" original I've got no issues in making the swap.

Oh, and if you know where to get wiperblades for this beast please let me know!
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Re: Buying dream car, 1967 continental sedan, what should I

Post by UglyViking »

rick wrote:Hi

So if I have this right.....and knowing me, I may have misunderstood - after taking delivery you contacted the original owner and told him that you wanted $3,250 of your money refunded because you believe you overpaid? .......... and he agreed to do so? If so, WOW. Why can't things like that ever happen to me? :grin:

I think you did pretty well and I want to congratulate you. I think for $7,500 dollars you received your money's worth. Neither you nor the seller could help the transportation costs. Simply the cost of doing business.

You mentioned in your introductory paragraph that you were devastated and that, "no rust" doesn't mean no rust........ yet when you later went over the car thoroughly it was rust free. I believe that getting our hands on any of these fifty-year old plus museum pieces and discovering that there is no rust or bondo is like finding a needle in a haystack and it certainly looks like you lucked out. I'm really pleased for you. I know it's been a long search for you but this car seems to me to be a keeper and a solid base from which to start.

I really think that a high percentage of the members on this Forum put a good deal of time, energy and when we can afford to "money" into the various facets of restoring these cars to whatever level each one of us is searching for: 1. engine rebuilding as required, 2. bodywork/paint and 3. interior restoration. I believe those three are part and partial to us all bringing our cars back to some form of their previous glory and it can be done either immediately (in this business the word "immediately" depends on the various tradesmen we use and their famous statement "You want it when???? comes to mind) :grin: or they can be done over a long period of time. It's meant to be fun and I really hope you enjoy this process and as you move along and please continue to keep us up to date. Appreciated.

Cheers

Rick
Thanks for the comments Rick. I had worked with the seller and we agreed to a escrow process. Part of the process is that I wire funds to a 3rd party, seller ships vehicle and I have 3 days to review condition of the vehicle. If I feel that it was correctly presented I release funds as agreed and we part ways. If I think there is no chance of salvage I simply inform the seller I'm rejecting the vehicle for whatever reason, I pay to send it back and we part ways. The final option is that I reject the vehicle but connect with the seller to try and come to a better agreement based off what I feel the vehicle is worth. If we agree to a new lower price then I get refunded the difference, seller gets paid and we part ways.

As for the rust, yeah I get what you mean. The seller had claimed 0 rust, no rust, not a spec of rust anywhere. I have come to the conclusion that while that may be what people feel is true, to me it's just not accurate. No rust, to me, means no rust. If I can look at a car and see many spots of rust then it's not a rust free car. Maybe free of major rust, but not rust free. Alas, I feel that I'm pretty much alone in this view of the world. I do agree with you though, the body is literally the only reason I kept it. Had there been anything "major" I would have just eaten the cost and sent it back.

I am super excited to have it, and I'm eager to get her moving under her own power in a respectable manner. With time I'll have her looking amazing but it's going to be a process to get there for sure. I think that if I'd paid close to 11k for the vehicle as it sits I'd be pretty annoyed. At 7500 it's a vastly better deal.
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