Gremlin in Steering, Belching Fluid

[TonyC]

Hi, all,

I'm sure this may come across as funny to some, and it's okay, you can laugh. But here's the problem. The steering gave no issues, no symptoms since I revived the engine, so it was safe to assume it was gremlin-free. Not. Two days ago, in the midst of my long Florida road trip, I discovered to my dismay that it's belching fluid and spraying the left side of the engine bay. I had this symptom about a year before, and thought I fixed it. Now it's returned, but it's still not exactly the same: The pump is not groaning (yet), and I haven't added fluid to it because the level keeps going up when it's in use. It goes down after sitting overnight, but the level is still above the full mark (it was at the full mark before this drama started!). Plus, the previously-red fluid has turned a reddish-brown.

Since I'm on the road, I cannot do involved surgery right now. But it looks like I may have to disassemble that pump again and do more work, this time with a kit that includes a new bearing; plus ditch the old filter (which is not that old, it's a Brewer special) for a new one. Does that sound about right? And in the meantime, anyone have input other than garaging the car to mitigate the belching of fluid while I am still out on the road? Thanks.

---Tony

[frasern]

The fluid going up, then settling down overnight, would suggest it is sucking air somewhere, which the pump is "frothing". My gut tells me a steering box seal, or something leaky on the return side, not the pressure side.

[TonyC]

Yes, that's another symptom...you said frothing; and yes, in operation the fluid gets as aerated as a shaken-up bottle of strawberry Faygo.

---Tony

[frasern]

I haven't seen a bottle of Faygo in years!
I wonder if bypassing the wiper, (plugging the hoses, temporarily) would narrow down the search for a leak.

Edit; Just had another thought, how old is the hose between the reservoir and pump? If something has plugged the filter, as you stated, that will increase suction in that area. Removing or replacing the filter may be, at least a short term fix.

[TonyC]

It's been years for me too, but I remember Faygo well. In fact, it used to be available in my area of Florida. Just for fun, I should check the stores to see if they still stock it while I'm here.

I'd rather not try bypassing the wiper motor because I'm over a thousand miles from home right now, and Florida is notorious for rain showers. They ought to call it the "Rainshine State"! The system is mostly fluid-tight, but I have noticed a wet spot in the gearbox area, at the input shaft where the steering column couples. It has not been so bad as to cause me to refill regularly, but it is there.

As for the hose between the reservoir and pump, I admit it's been years since I changed it out. I wanted to during the rebuild surgery, but I could not find any 5/8" hydraulic hosing except in like 25- or 50-foot bulk. I will try the filter removal tomorrow, see what effect that has, unless someone advises against it. Although a temporary patch, I still have to do a return trip to Kansas in a week.

--Tony

[LithiumCobalt]

I've always been told that removing the filter causes more cavitation problems. Don't know how much truth there is to that, but I've always had one installed in my slabsides.

[LithiumCobalt]

I've always been told that removing the filter causes more cavitation problems. Don't know how much truth there is to that, but I've always had one installed in my slabsides.

[TonyC]

Interesting counter-point, that. What I can do, then, is remove the filter today and keep it, drive around locally to evaluate the behavior of the system, and if the belching situation worsens spray the filter as clean as I can and reinstall it. If the system stops belching fluid, however, I'll keep it filter-less until I can install a new one after my return from Florida. Sound like a kosher approach?

---Tony

Update 1, 30 March: Yesterday I removed the filter. It was a bit messy but not hard. I did some driving around, part of that on non-interstate highways, and the frothing and spillover have stopped. So it's safe to conclude that the filter did clog up and cause that symptom. I know it's not necessarily a good thing to run without a filter, but under my current circumstances I have no other choice. It should hold up (key word SHOULD) for about a week until I get back to Kansas. I will certainly need to dump out as much of the cooked fluid as I can from the system and put in new, but I have more than enough Type F on hand to do that.

Update 2, 3 April: Symptoms are back. So, I have a lot of surgery involved when I get home. I'm suspecting that the pump is failing...dammit. It hasn't started sounding death groans yet or dumping fluid on the ground, just still belching up the pipe...but the pump has to be the cause. That is the one component responsible for circulating and pressurizing the fluid. I have to shop now for one of those rebuild kits with a new bearing, plus another filter as it's very possible the one I removed may have debris jammed into it.

[frasern]

I know you've been discussing this on another thread, but I thought I would bring it back here.
As we seem to agree, fluid is getting aerated, but where? My thinking was the hose, but now I'm thinking it could be the pressed in fitting on the pump. Someone on here posted about a loose fitting before, I can't remember if it was you, but that could be a source of air. Once frothed up, it takes a very long time to settle, so it just keeps getting frothier every time it circulates. As a temporary patch, a very thick grease, packed around the outside of that fitting? No good for a pressure leak, but might help stop a vacuum. Just an untested theory, but if it works, you will know what to fix.
You could check for cracks where the fitting exits the reservoir, however, I think that would be wet, as it would suck air in operation, but leak oil when parked.
Also, that hose can likely be sourced from an agricultural parts source, they have items, not always found at auto parts suppliers. I had no problem getting it from the local NAPA, but this is a farming area, and they cater to that.

[George W]

I had the problem on my 65 with the pump’s inlet nipple leaking. The nipple is a simple press fit into the pump casting and mine turned out to be loose. I got a lot of advice here on the Forum as to how to secure it. The overall consensus was to either use JB Weld or Arthur Apple suggested using red Loctite. I did not want to pull the pump off the car again so I elected to try the red Loctite first. The thought was that it’s much more liquid in viscosity than the JB Weld and would be more likely to flow in and around the joint. I made sure that the pump inlet opening was clean, dry and oil free as well as the nipple itself. I then put a smooth film of the Loctite on the nipple and pressed it in place at the proper orientation. I made sure it was fully bottomed out into the pump casting. I let it set for two days and so far it’s been leak free. I suppose that if there were a slight leak on the inlet side of the pump it could suck air when in operation which could be a possible cause of the frothing.

[frasern]

Thanks George, that's probably the post I saw, I just couldn't remember the details.

[TonyC]

Yes, I admit that I'm guilty of jumping between threads to gripe about this problem. Sorry, all. But since I am now convinced that the filter was not a major contributor, much less the cause, I'm going to stick to this thread now to the end.

It does seem that the system is dragging air into it based on the symptoms I have (well, I haven't had those symptoms since the partial fluid change, but I'm not saying they're gone yet). I would think, though, that I would have seen this occurring before my road trip and not during it. But, I do know that anything can happen. I would also think that if the inlet fitting worked loose enough to suck air, it would also be loose enough to leak fluid after a day or two of sitting; it isn't. Plus, last time I fiddled with the pump, the inlet fitting was as tight as it ought to be...and I did already know to check it, because the issue of loose fittings was already published. I'm not seeing any spot anywhere in the steering that is getting wet with fluid escaping; even the wiper motor is dry. On the other hand, how else would the fluid get carbonated like strawberry Faygo? Well, not entirely accurate; there's still the wet spot at the input of the steering gearbox. I don't know if a sweaty seal in that location would cause the system to suck in air when in use. I'm keeping all suggestions to mind for when I get home and burrow into it. I had wanted to start that return trip today, but bad weather forced me to delay the return trip until tomorrow. Fingers crossed that what I did a couple days ago, replace some of the fluid and re-install the filter, will help delay a massive failure until I can make it home.

Yet another example of freaky s**t always happening only to me.

---Tony

[George W]

I can’t imagine that the p/s system could suck in air other than at the fluid reservoir itself or somewhere between the reservoir and the pump inlet. Everywhere else the system is under high pressure and would leak out. I suppose that the pump itself has a suction side and could it be possible that, if it does, it could suck air though a leaky seal. Possibly from the crankcase side? Any fluid loss may go into the crankcase. It could suck air from within the reservoir if the fluid level drops below the top of the p/s filter. A perplexing problem for sure !

[TonyC]

Well, I made it home from Florida, on a wing and a prayer (lots of the latter). The car is crippled, but not yet disabled. It has more problems than just the totally-funky hydraulic problem in the steering...but I can talk about those other problems later.

When I was in Texas, I talked with a guy at a gas station about the hydraulic problem; he seemed somewhat knowledgeable about steering hydraulics, so I showed him what I was dealing with. He said the fluid felt too slick to be purely transmission fluid; he said like it felt more like engine oil to him. That would mean that engine oil is leaking into the pump...which I know seems impossible. If anything, a seal failure would cause transmission fluid to leak into the engine, not engine oil leaking into the pump! But, yesterday, I siphoned out more fluid from the reservoir and smelled it, comparing it to pure transmission fluid. The reddish-brown stuff I siphoned out smelled more like engine oil, certainly not like transmission fluid. That means that somehow the rebuild I did last year botched itself suddenly during the trip; that is totally mysterious, and extremely frustrating. I still don't see how that sort of thing can happen, but it must have, somehow. The evidence is there.

Fortunately, I have my new rebuild kit from Mark II Enterprises, so I'm going to work on rebuilding the other pump I have. The new sleeve bearing slides onto the sleeve perfectly, with no resistance, which tells me the bearing inside this pump is what warped; so installing the new one should put this pump back into service. I'm also going to siphon out every bit of contaminated fluid from the whole system, to include the wiper motor and the gearbox, and hope that the gremlin in the steering system is expelled once I put everything back together. It had better work, because due to this problem, the other problems that also cropped up during the trip, and the extortionist prices for fuel that left me virtually broke for the rest of the month (thanks for that, you "Vote Blue No Matter Who" types ), I was unable to take care of some other things I wanted to cover on this past trip. That means that next month, I need to do another road trip into Texas to take care of the stuff I couldn't. Hopefully the driveline problem is not so serious that it would be beyond my abilities...but I have to get the car on a rack to assess that damage, which can't happen until at least Friday.

---Tony

[papawayne]

Yipes, Tony, I feel for you! You've had problems that none of us ever hope to have. Keep us posted. Wayne