67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by Dan Szwarc »

I don’t think the pedal physically hits the floor with a MC installed.

A fully bled master that has blocked ports will only move the plunger a tiny bit (no air, no travel).

I have read to never open the bleeder on the MC, but I don’t know why.
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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by frasern »

You can unbolt the master, and pull it free of the booster without removing the brake lines. Pedal should feel smooth but may not quite hit floor, I'm not sure. It may return on it's own, but should not require much of a pull if any (engine off).
the pedal should swing freely with no resistance when disconnected as Tony described. No return spring, it should hit floor, It won't quite bottom out with everything in place.
I hope you don't have my problem, but if the pedal won't swing freely, that pivot is a nightmare to access. Is your floor getting wet?
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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by Mike »

On my 63 with no master cylinder in place pedal will come back up on its own. Don't know if its all the way but pretty close.
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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by MikeinNP »

Apologies for the slow response. Christmas shopping season!

Here's where I am. I decided to go ahead and pull the master all the way off and check the differential valve as well. Took that off to see if that had only clogs, corrosion, etc. Looks all good.

I also decided to replace the booster just to eliminate that as any kind of issue. From my reading, they apparently deteriorate more rapidly after sitting for some length of time and I believe my Lincoln sat for 10 years without use. Got the booster off without much issue. Mostly the vacuum, steering and A/C hoses in the way.

I also decided to replace the master cylinder - again! Did this because the one that came on the car, and the one I replaced it with, had the rear brake line coming out of the engine side of the master. The stock one from the factory apparently had that brake line coming out of the engine compartment side of the master. Looks like previous owner(s) put on some alternative and rerouted that brake line. I'm bringing it back to stock and will need to find a new brake line like the one from the factory that had a 360 degree loop in it.

Here's the question today. I bought the booster from Mark II Enterprises and for the 1967 they describe the booster as "L9/L11". Jack mentioned either one would work. Got the booster in the mail today and it's marked as an "L10".

Before I go through all the trouble to install it - does the "L" model make a difference and if so what is the difference between the L9, L10 and L11 models? I'm guessing some kind of length thing since the plunger that attaches at the brake arm and the rod going into the master look pretty much the same as the one I took out. The booster I removed is marked "L9".

Mike
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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by Dan Szwarc »

The L9/L11 nomenclature is consistent with Ford's Identification in MPCs for L9 to L11 or L9-L11 including any revisions in between. In this pic, it is seen ass 67/68 and 70/71.

Here's the deal with 1967 booster. It's exactly the same as 1966 EXCEPT for the rod to the brake pedal. The shape is slightly different to compensate for some other dimensional difference between the years.

The MPC give the PN for the 1967 booster as C9VY-2005-A. This is a service part indicated by the C9 part number that is backwards compatible with 1968 and 1967.
MPC Brake Boosters 65/72
MPC Brake Boosters 65/72
WHERE does your booster show L10 on it? Does it look like the one on the car? Here's a pic of mine removed for painting.
1966 Brake booster
1966 Brake booster
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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by MikeinNP »

Hi Dan, the number shows up on the shaft that attaches to the brake pedal. It's on the side near the hole that attaches to the arm. Yours is covered with the blue tape.

I called Jack and it said it shouldn't matter and he said that if the one I removed and the one I purchased are identical physically then I'm good to go. I measured both the length of the input shaft as it sits naturally where the booster pushes it outward and I measured the output shaft after making sure it was pushed in all the way. Both measured pretty much exactly within less than 1/16" so I went ahead and installed the booster. I likewise measured the distance of the output shaft down from where the master would sit as well as the distance of the hole in the back of the master to see if I needed any adjustments. They were within a 1mm and I didn't make any adjustment to the booster output shaft.

I have everything installed now and I have to say this is a remarkable difference from when I started. The brake pedal now feels like it should and returns back up where I would expect it to. The brake lights seem to go on and off where expected.

As you might have suspected, there is surface rust under the dash from probably a leaky windshield and the brake arm shaft was too tight in my opinion. It's an amazing awkward place to get to, but I managed to get some good shots of WD40 on the bushings that the brake arm pivots on. I tried to do this through the hole the booster goes through but it's more awkward that trying to do this from under the dash. With the pedal pushed all the way to the floor, you can get your head in there enough to see the pivot points. I used the WD40 with the flexible metal extension and got plenty on it, worked it back and forth, let it absorb for a day or two and kept working it. The swing of the brake pedal felt much better and then I installed the booster.

Next step - I installed the MC and decided to bench bleed it on the car. I have a brake fluid gadget that pushes fluid out of it and I attached it to first the back reservoir and pushed fluid into the MC until no bubbles, and then did the same thing by using the bleeder valve on the front reservoir to do the same thing. This looks like it worked well.

Next step - started bleeding the front brakes. I think I recall people saying to do the backs first, but the manual says to do the fronts first. Honestly, I don't think it matters since the back and front brakes have their own isolated reservoirs. I pulled the pin on the metering valve for the front brakes by clamping a vise grip and wedging some popsicle sticks to hold it open. Mine doesn't have that handy nub on the end to use the cool Ford spring tool to hold it open.

I then discovered *no* fluid is getting to the calipers so I had to troubleshoot that and figured out that the rubber brake lines are somehow clogged and I ordered new ones. I can't imagine anything else I need to replace at this point except the steel lines themselves which appear to be open and moving fluid.

On the distance the pedal goes to the floor when bleeding, it does *not* go all the way to the floor when full compressed, probably about an inch and a half until it bottoms out. I assume the distance is constrained by the MC.

I'll post back again when I get the new brake lines installed. Bought some cool steel braided lines instead of the usual rubber.

Mike
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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by Dan Szwarc »

I think you’re on your way to fixed brakes. Thanks for the follow-up.
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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by MikeinNP »

Dan, here's a photo of the "L9" faintly showing through the rust. :)
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Booster L9 Small.jpg
Mike Bishoff - Normandy Park, WA
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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by Dan Szwarc »

Thanks for the pics. Of all the pics I have, I never looked that closely at the rod.
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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by frasern »

Glad things are coming together. I hate to spend more of your money, but if something caused the front hoses to collapse from the inside, what shape is the rear one inside?
AS for the brake pivot, there is a bushing, in the pedal, bolted to the bracket. the bushing on mine, had seized to the pedal, causing the whole thing to pivot on the bolt. To fix it, I had to remove the dash bolts at the top and pry the dash out enough to remove that brake bolt and remove the pedal. I then drove the bushing out, (it should be a loose fit), honed the hole of the pedal with a brake hone, put copper anti seize grease on everything, and put it all back together. So I'm glad yours freed up more easily.
The leak may be in the cowl at the far left. On mine, the factory robot missed some welds, and eventually the caulking failed. This spot is high, where it will only leak while driving. wind blows water in there I guess. You can't see in there, so you need a snake camera to inspect. This is getting a bit long winded, so I will hold off on that repair unless you ask.
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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by Mike »

Sounds like you are getting there. I've still got problems with one other car of mine to fix before I can move my continental from cold storage to warm shop space to work on it. I replaced the front hoses a few weeks ago and had to cut them to get on there to remove them. The Insides were completely swelled shut on one side and didn't look much better on the other.
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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by MikeinNP »

Mike wrote:Sounds like you are getting there. I've still got problems with one other car of mine to fix before I can move my continental from cold storage to warm shop space to work on it. I replaced the front hoses a few weeks ago and had to cut them to get on there to remove them. The Insides were completely swelled shut on one side and didn't look much better on the other.
I had no idea those hoses swelled shut like that! Makes me feel like I'm going down the right path. Honestly, there's not much complexity to the brake line routing on this Lincoln. There aren't that many choke points! :) New Brake Lines are coming in tomorrow. Ordered them with a blue vinyl covering and blue inserts. Not that anyone will be down there looking, but they were only $20 more for the stainless lines vs the rubber. I'll post photos!

Mike
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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by Solid »

MikeinNP wrote: Next step - started bleeding the front brakes. I think I recall people saying to do the backs first, but the manual says to do the fronts first. Honestly, I don't think it matters since the back and front brakes have their own isolated reservoirs. I pulled the pin on the metering valve for the front brakes by clamping a vise grip and wedging some popsicle sticks to hold it open. Mine doesn't have that handy nub on the end to use the cool Ford spring tool to hold it open.
Yeah on more modern systems the fault tolerance goes between opposite corners not front/rear so front works best. On these cars the best you can do is shortest path first though, especially if you’ve done a new master cylinder. This is easy in the front and then in the back while IIRC there is a small asymmetry it’s irrelevant. Doing the front first helps with getting old fluid or air flushed first. When using one of the tools that lets you push fluid through the system by pressurizing the reservoir I recommend stepping on the pedal a couple times to actuate the master cylinder while the fluid is flushing. This helps clear any small bubbles that may form from air that makes it into the lines or the MC between bench bleeding and hookup of the hard lines. For whatever reason the pressurized flow doesn’t always free these little bubbles in the MC by itself.
MikeinNP wrote: I then discovered *no* fluid is getting to the calipers so I had to troubleshoot that and figured out that the rubber brake lines are somehow clogged and I ordered new ones. I can't imagine anything else I need to replace at this point except the steel lines themselves which appear to be open and moving fluid.
Mike
No fluid at the bleeder can also happen if the calipers are partially or completely seized. A slow dribble can happen with a stuck air bubble - give the pedal a swift push while the pressurized bleeder is running like I described above. The fluid turning solid and rubber lines failing shut can happen in cars that sit for a very very long time. It happens in collections where people never use them - think a low mileage Ferrari from the 90’s that hasn’t been driven since it was purchased because the owner is a soulless halfwit.
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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by Dan Szwarc »

No fluid at the bleeder can also happen if the calipers are partially or completely seized.
This is illogical and untrue.
The state of the calipers has nothing to do with bleeding.

Think about it. They are not pushing the fluid, the master cylinder is.
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Re: 67 Brake Pedal Super Hard - No Brakes

Post by Dan Szwarc »

Whatever happened here? What was the problem and was it fixed?
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