1969 Steering Pump Groans when cold

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Solid
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Re: 1969 Steering Pump Groans when cold

Post by Solid »

hollandaises wrote:I'll have to double check what fluids I have. Pennzoil makes a Dexron/Mercon ATF which I have on hand but it is not compatible. They also list a type F on their website but the usual stores I go to don't have it.
Dexron I, II, III are all compatible, as they are revisions of the original Dexron which is the non-whale-squeezings replacement for Type A. Since the power steering pumps all take A or F you should be fine flushing and filling with Dexron III (I don’t think anyone makes I or II anymore since III is the backwards compatible improved replacement. I would avoid the Dexron VI or higher for this application since they are not intended to be backwards compatible.

M2C33-D is not Type F, it is Type D, introduced in 1960. Maybe there is a reference from Ford that says F replaces D in the same application somewhere.
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Re: 1969 Steering Pump Groans when cold

Post by TonyC »

Actually, Nick, I consider that question a moot point, because it's a 1966 owner's manual, so there's no way it could have been published in '67. But to answer the question, the ownership info on the first page was hand-dated by the dealer on the Ides of March, 1966. Granted, it's not Frankenstein's specific owner's manual; I pulled it from an organ donor many years ago...but the dealer's date and the model year the manual references make that irrelevant.

Solid, recheck Nick's photograph, and ditch the sources that say M2C33D isn't Type F. It is. That's from Ford, printed in at least four owner's manuals from different years that I have seen. Honestly, I have never seen any reference to a Type D, ever; the first I heard of it was from your post.

But, just in case you're right and I'm wrong (or vice-versa), the real point for the OP to take away is that Dexron and Type F must never be mixed, except in a recycle drum.

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Re: 1969 Steering Pump Groans when cold

Post by George W »

Ooops ! I used Type F to fill my newly rebuilt 1965 ps pump. I'm almost sure that's what Lincoln Lands on line video said to use.
Good thing that this was brought up as I would have used Type F to top off the trans fluid if needed. So far I've not added anything to the trans. fluid. I'll pick up a couple of quarts of Dexron. ( Mercon the same ?? )
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Re: 1969 Steering Pump Groans when cold

Post by TonyC »

George, you're getting that reversed—DO NOT use ANY Dexron in your steering or your transmission! You got it right with Type F already!

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Re: 1969 Steering Pump Groans when cold

Post by Solid »

Unless the parts list shows all different hardware for the PS/wiper system after the invention of Type F, it’s obvious that Dexron would work fine too.
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Re: 1969 Steering Pump Groans when cold

Post by TonyC »

Unless the parts list shows all different hardware for the PS/wiper system after the invention of Type F, it’s obvious that Dexron would work fine too.

That is like saying that Type A-Positive blood can be used for a patient with Type O-Negative blood, or vice-versa; after all, they too are both red, right? Seriously, Solid, I don't intend this to come off as condescending (sorry if it does), but your sources are wrong. You cannot and must not intermix Dexron with Type F. It's critical, imperative, to know what fluid is used and what should be used, lest you end up with far greater problems, just like the patient who got his O- bloodstream contaminated with A+ because the doctors decided that blood is blood is blood.

Linking from another thread, I ordered one of John Brewer's patented steering filters today, hoping that will cure Frankenstein's cold-weather cold-start groaning. That happened only a couple sporadic times last winter, and those were unnerving enough. Now, he does that every time when it's cold enough...and it's been getting cold enough. :handgestures-fingerscrossed: :handgestures-fingerscrossed: that cures that problem before the pump grinds itself to oblivion. (FOLLOW-UP:
It didn't. But see my post dated 8 July 2022, further down the thread.)

---Tony
Last edited by TonyC on Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet, just because there is a picture with a quote next to it." (Abraham Lincoln, 1866)
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Re: 1969 Steering Pump Groans when cold

Post by hollandaises »

TonyC wrote:Linking from another thread, I ordered one of John Brewer's patented steering filters today, hoping that will cure Frankenstein's cold-weather cold-start groaning. That happened only a couple sporadic times last winter, and those were unnerving enough. Now, he does that every time when it's cold enough...and it's been getting cold enough. :handgestures-fingerscrossed: :handgestures-fingerscrossed: that cures that problem before the pump grinds itself to oblivion.

---Tony

I just got my filter from John Brewer and it's completely different from the cheap ones that allegedly fit from RockAuto.com.
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Re: 1969 Steering Pump Groans when cold

Post by TonyC »

So, hopefully, that means that there should be no complications in fitting it into the reservoir. That should be nice, considering that I already have to remove a bunch of cumbersome stuff just to get to the reservoir, so I'd prefer no hassles with doing the core job itself. I don't remember when I last replaced that filter, but I do remember having a lot of complications in trying to get it to fit in there properly until I finally got it at just the correct angle for the lid to seat.

And I really hope that cures the problem. The groaning is getting steadily worse; today, the whole time I drove the car, it never let up...and I still have places to go, people to see, things to do, all before that new filter comes in next week. :doh:

---Tony

UPDATE, 7 December 2020: I got the new filter today and installed it; I've yet to road-test the car to see if that made any difference. John Brewer was kind enough to include installation instructions with the filter for us, a big plus being that the shop manuals do not cover disassembly of the reservoir at all (maybe a long-lost supplement might have those instructions, but the shop manuals themselves do not). So, I've installed the filter and have stashed the instructions in the steering section of my shop manual for future reference. I covered my installation experience, with pictures, in the thread "1960 - 1969 CORRECT Power Steering Filter NOW AVAILABLE!" for those who want to see how it's done.
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Re: 1969 Steering Pump Groans when cold

Post by TonyC »

Thumbing through to bump another thread for an update, I came across this one again and realized that the OP's question was never answered, issue never resolved (?). It skewed off into the politics (so to speak) of ATF formulas, which I admit to contributing myself. Last post was from me, when I started experiencing the OP's same symptoms. Yes, I replaced the filter hoping it might make a difference; although I still think it was a good idea to do it anyway, it did not relieve the groaning symptoms. No explanation was given for the symptoms, much less a resolution, by anyone because the OP and I were the first (and, so far, only) ones to experience it.

Since then, I have that explanation and the resolution. The cause of a cold groan, if the fluid level has been confirmed to be correct, is a worn-out sleeve bushing inside the core of the pump. This bushing is pressed into the pressure plate, to hold the impeller sleeve in true position. When it wears out, it will tend to warp around the sleeve, causing friction which very likely is the cause of the groaning with a full complement of fluid in the system. Fluid flow will not relieve that friction when the bushing has warped that tightly around the sleeve (except temporarily, when temp and pressure build up enough). The cure is to buy a rebuild kit which has not only seals but also a replacement bushing (both are available thru Mark II Enterprises), remove and disassemble the pump, remove the old bushing (which may try coming out anyway with the sleeve, as was the case with mine), carefully install the new bushing, then re-assemble the pump. On a side note, while the shell is still disassembled, use a long, thin flat-head screwdriver to assess the performance of the relief valve. It should move freely in its bore when manipulated, and spring back when released. If it does not, then it's time to overrule the warning in the shop manual and service that valve; at least the manual provides guidance to that service after its warning banner...but, unfortunately, the shop manual gives no guidance on replacing the bushing in the pressure plate, so I was on my own; I made hand notes in my manual regarding that surgery after I pulled it off.

But there you have it. Should anyone here have the same problems in the future, now you know the cause and the remedy.
For elaboration on the surgery involved to cure the problem, see the related thread titled "Gremlin in Steering, Belching Fluid," in this category. The subject symptom wasn't the same, nor the cause of said symptom; but I did elaborate on the sleeve bushing there. If questions still arise, just ask, either here or via PM.

---Tony
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