Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pump)

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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by Dan Szwarc »

MINI coopers are not known for their longevity or quality. They might be built by BMW, but they do not have BMW quality (if there is such a thing).

Anyway, I advise against using the 58-style pumps. Super old technology.

This thread doesn’t appear to have gone anywhere. Does no one have any racing solutions?
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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by action »

There are a number of Ford models built in the last 5 years that have electric power steering. Most if not all are smaller and lighter vehicles. I wonder how an electric system would hold up to the stresses of a Lincoln built in the 1960s.

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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by adyhamer »

action wrote:There are a number of Ford models built in the last 5 years that have electric power steering. Most if not all are smaller and lighter vehicles. I wonder how an electric system would hold up to the stresses of a Lincoln built in the 1960s.

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The Astra the power steering pump came out of is only a small car and it is still going strong. I have the new timing cover and space from a 58 Lincoln just didn't get around to fitting them this winter.
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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by burnski »

More info on the belt driven ps pump.

http://www.ford-mel-engine.com/old_foru ... index.html
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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by TonyC »

Well, regarding this issue, I have some input on electric steering systems. Yesterday while I was doing some wiring work to Frankenstein, a resident in my complex asked me to help him and his girlfriend find the location for power steering fluid on her car. Her car is a 2014 Ford, one of the "full-size" sedans. As it turned out, that car has electric steering, as I first suspected. I told them that after confirming it with the car's owner's manual. Apparently, she was having problems with her steering and didn't realize what kind of system she had--I'm guessing the symptoms were somewhat similar to low fluid in a hydraulic system. Bottom line, that meant she had to take her car to a dealer to have it checked out.

That tells me that, unless you have factory experience with an electric system, you will be hosed when that system malfunctions...and it will malfunction, just like anything else on a car. Hers took only four years to develop problems. Personally, I'd rather deal with a hydraulic system, which can at least be patched or topped off until a full repair can be done.

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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by Dan Szwarc »

Was it electric steering or just an electric pump?

Self-driving cars and EVs can come with electric steering, but i’m not up to date on what the normal gassers come with nowadays. I don’t even know what my Bolt has in it.
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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by TonyC »

Well, from my (rather short) examination, I did not see anything attached to the engine that suggested a steering pump of any kind, which prompted me to think it was electric steering. I remember Ford began to install that system in Escapes back in 2008, so I told the girl to let me see her owner's manual--which said the steering was electric with no option for owner-level maintenance, to include fluid. Needless to say, she and her boyfriend wasted money on steering fluid they couldn't use. I'm going on a limb and saying that the entire system is electric.

I'm not extremely versed on new Fords, so I'm not 100% sure if the entire system is electric or merely an electric pump. Perhaps someone here with more info can clarify. But that is my primary concern with the retrofit proposal of this thread: What does one do when the system breaks down? Never go by the presumption that a new system is infallible.

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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by papawayne »

I think my 07 chevy cobalt had electric steering...there was certainly no mechanical connection between the gas pedal and the motor. (I know, two non sequitors, but I hated that car) Wayne
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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by action »

The Ford system is all electric or electronic. Called EPAS, Electronic Power Assisted Steering. This site shown below is not a Ford site however it does show what vehicles have the system. And yes there have been growing pains. http://www.fordproblems.com/trends/epas/

I believe the Ford Escape took the hit for the model that had the most issues with this type of steering. I moderate a small Ford Forum and no other vehicle has gotten more posts about the EPAS than the Escape.

My mother in law has had a Focus and now a Fusion. Both with electric steering and both vehicle have/had over 100,000 with no issues. Not that clicking over six figures is a miles stone. The Focus was totaled in an accident so she stepped up to a 2010 Fusion. So far the Fusion has been a much better vehicle than the Focus. (In many ways)

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1970 Continental Mark III Triple Black 460 4v, C6, 2.80 (Used for Woodward Dream Cruise or just generally stored in Michigan)
1966 Lincoln Continental 4DR Convertible 462 4v, C6, 3.00
1966 Mercury Park Lane 4DR Breezeway 410 4v, C6, 2.80
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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by Solid »

There were a lot of complaints about the electric power assist when Porsche first introduced it, with people claiming that it reduced road feel. Porsche responded that the "feel" people were missing was actually communicated vibrations from the power steering hydraulics and not road feel, and it seems people have since shut up about it. It would be an interesting modification for the Lincoln, but the main reason that it's become a mainstream approach is that it improves efficiency by reducing the parasitic loss on the engine from the pump. It also provides some flexibility in packaging the power plant. I doubt you'd want to try to run one with an original 61-62 generator.
Last edited by Solid on Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by action »

Solid wrote: I doubt you'd want to try to run one with an original 61-62 generator.
Great point!!!
Or any Ford/Lincoln product with a generator. (OK Continental, Edsel and Mercury too)

While the electronic part of the system likely draws very little current. There is a motor in the EPAS system that would have a big draw. Upgrading to an alternator would be needed as well as converting to an EPAS system. Because the greatest load would be a low RPM. Like parking.

In addition I would want to see a heavy vehicle produced that uses that type of system. So far Ford (and other companies that I have seen) have only used this on lighter cars. No trucks and no big SUVs. A slab side or any Lincoln from the 1950s up to 1980 are not known to be petite!

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2006 Lincoln Navigator Limited 5.4l 3V
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII 2DR Coupe Diamond Anniversary 4.6l DOHC, 4R70W, 3.07
1970 Continental Mark III Triple Black 460 4v, C6, 2.80 (Used for Woodward Dream Cruise or just generally stored in Michigan)
1966 Lincoln Continental 4DR Convertible 462 4v, C6, 3.00
1966 Mercury Park Lane 4DR Breezeway 410 4v, C6, 2.80
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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by Solid »

I think you'll see it on everything that switches to 48V. Ford's decision to go aluminum on the F150 was driven in part by fuel efficiency targets, so it stands to reason it will get this as well to claw back some additional fuel economy. I'd expect to see 48V forced induction with smaller engines on a lot of upcoming power plants across manufacturers. Stuff like this: http://www.aeristech.co.uk/electric-supercharger/. When they become more common, we'll probably start to see 48V parallel systems and accessories as options we can apply to ancient beasts such as ours - though I'd guess there will not be many 48V hydraulic pumps since that would sort of defeat the purpose.
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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by uglydukwling »

Has anyone looked into using an electric hydraulic pump that isn't called a power steering pump? There are plenty of them used in snowplows, power tailgates, etc.
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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by action »

uglydukwling wrote:Has anyone looked into using an electric hydraulic pump that isn't called a power steering pump? There are plenty of them used in snowplows, power tailgates, etc.
And slab side convertibles. OK a little small one or two depending on year.


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2006 Lincoln Navigator Limited 5.4l 3V
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII 2DR Coupe Diamond Anniversary 4.6l DOHC, 4R70W, 3.07
1970 Continental Mark III Triple Black 460 4v, C6, 2.80 (Used for Woodward Dream Cruise or just generally stored in Michigan)
1966 Lincoln Continental 4DR Convertible 462 4v, C6, 3.00
1966 Mercury Park Lane 4DR Breezeway 410 4v, C6, 2.80
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Re: Electric Power Steering (And eliminating the crank PS Pu

Post by TonyC »

Something I was thinking about, going back to the OP's post. Although he may have successfully retrofitted an electric pump from another car into his own Suicide, the system would still have to be hydraulically operated, the only difference being that an electric pump circulates the fluid instead of the crankshaft-spun impeller. After all, the wipers are still hydraulic and cannot be converted, and no electric steering box in existence will retrofit into a Suicide's steering system, so the steering system still has to be hydraulic in its core. He still hasn't given updates to his dilemma of sealing off the front of the engine after discarding the crank pump, although with input regarding interchangeable parts he should be successful in that venture. Hopefully, his pump will not give problems in the near future; but knowing how electrical components fail eventually, I also hope that he documents his project to share with others who have the same idea. I think the biggest problem others would have would be finding replacement MEL parts to seal the front of the engine after discarding the pump. Being that the market for those parts is extremely low, I don't think that too many others could make that happen.

Somehow the topic skewed slightly into converting into a totally non-hydraulic electric steering system--at least, that was the impression I got (and if I contributed to that by talking about my neighbor's 2014 Fusion, I apologize). At the risk of sounding like a downer, I feel that that concept (total-electric conversion) is a pie-in-the-sky dream. That is not to say that it's impossible; after all, Neil Young converted a '59 Mark IV into a pre-Tesla. But Neil Young had far more moolah than any of us ever would have, and his premonition of the Tesla engineering included the cons as well as the pros (i.e., :angry-extinguishflame: ).

Conceptually it may be possible, but in reality it is not practical. Keep in mind that Suicides utilized unique parts, unique even back then; and installing electric steering will involve total reinvention of the steering system and construction of parts from scratch (e.g., steering gear box). Only a person with a desire to do it and a factory and some creative engineers on hand to do it can pull it off. Nobody can successfully cobble up a total-electric steering system the Frankenstein way.

Electric wiper motors cannot be used in place of hydraulic motors for the same reason--parts have to be designed and built from scratch, and nobody will go down that route on their own initiative (another show-stopping concern in creating an electric-steering system for these cars). So you really think electric steering can be done for a Suicide, especially on the cheap?

And then there is a concern which I already had mentioned previously: Diagnosis and repair. If, hypothetically, somebody did develop and perfect a total electric-steering conversion kit for Suicides (or any hydraulic-steering system, for that matter), what does one do when the system causes problems? A prospector would also have to develop a shop manual for that system to locate every possible cause for trouble and failure--and I know that nobody will think of that. For example, Audiovox never came up with a diagnostic manual for its CCR-100 cruise control; nearly all the problems I've had with mine, I've had to locate the cause the hard way. Although I've pretty much learned what can kill the system, even I haven't bothered to write down the causes I came across.

But, maybe, with all these concerns listed, that could give a potential prospector an idea of what to look for to develop the best system possible. Still, there is marketing potential, where Suicides are concerned: There were only about 365,000 Suicides ever built; add Thunderbirds to that total, and you may break a million. A maximum of one third that number of cars still exist today, very few of those even used to any practical extent. The market simply will not justify the expense of such a venture. Sorry, folks, but the overwhelming majority of us are stuck with the crank pumps. Personally, I don't mind it.

---Tony
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"Question Authority!"

1966 Continental Sedan, affectionately known as "Frankenstein" until body restoration is done (to be renamed "General Sherman" on that event)
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