Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Anything that pertains only to a convertible goes here. Such as: Top material, pads, mechanism, hydraulic pumps, switch and relay mechanisms, latches, etc.

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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby Cliff Adams » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:56 pm

Hello Ken,
The click you hear, is it the solenoid or possibly a 15 amp circuit breaker? Last year I had a short in my top's wire harness and the click I heard was from the circuit breaker.
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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby Ken Stevens » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:31 pm

It's the solenoids for sure. To be sure, I felt them and could detect the internals working. The guy I brought it to said he was sure there's air in the lines. So first he's first going to flush and bleed the system. He will keep the brake fluid as any remaining brake fluid would contaminate the transmission fluid. Once that's done and everything's greased up we'll see how it is. If it's not good, then we'll dive in and replace the entire hydraulic system and run type F.
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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby 1961Lincoln » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:07 am

Ken,

If you opt to replace the pump, I highly recommend the high capacity (fast) pump available at Lincolnland. I believe it shortened the cycle about 50%.

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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby Conv61Canada » Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:13 pm

What is the typical cycle time for a perfectly working system?

My '61 takes just over a minute to cycle each way including the decklid time.
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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby Dan Szwarc » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:52 pm

75-100 seconds. Little more. Little less.
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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby John Cashman » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:50 pm

When I get done with a customers car and it has the Hi volume pump motor unit on it(and the system has absolutely NO air in it)the top will go down in 60 seconds. About 70 to come up. This is timed with the deck screwed down.(complete cycle)
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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby Conv61Canada » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:06 am

Can I tell by looking at it if I have the high volume pump or not? It has been replaced by the P.O. and it a bronze color.
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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby Macho » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:52 pm

I have a problem where the top moves for some time then pump stops. This has occurred sooner and sooner lately, so in order to get the top back on I had to do it in like, four cycles. It always required some waiting before pump could be activated again.

Today I opened this relay and cleaned the contacts spotless and now the pump seems to work little bit faster and the operation time is longer also. However after a while the problem still occurs and the pump stops. Could it be that the maybe little bit faulty coil inside the relay is getting hotter when used and after that, it has no power to pull the contacts together?

What is the amperage rating of this relay, 30A?
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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby Dan Szwarc » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:48 pm

The contacts look like they can handle about 30 amps.

The the coil is opening due to heat, it's time for a new relay. If the relay no longer clicks, and power is still getting to the coil, it's bad.
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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby JAB » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:47 am

If the relay clicks AND passes current it is good, like Dan said.
Your problem is probably centered around a bad pump, or one of the other hydraulic components.
John Cashman always recommends replacing the pump, lines and cylinders (hydraulic upgrade) when you start having problems
with the original parts. Even if the fluid has been replaced with type F, the internal components get mucked up with the old
DOT 3 crap and everything becomes suspect.

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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby Macho » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:11 am

I checked the voltage to the pump, it goes to zero when the top stops moving. So it's about the relay or the relay activation voltage. I will check that next, just to be sure the problem really is the relay. My hydraulic system works ok at the moment. Its the old relays and switches that need more work before the top is fully operational again.
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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby Dan Szwarc » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:25 am

If the voltage at the pump drops to zero, then the relay is probably bad (high resistance across the contacts).

If you jumper/bypass the relay and the pump works, then you have confirmed it.
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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby Macho » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:33 pm

Had some other things to do but now started to investigate this again. This problem actually is to both directions identical. So when the pump stops when roof is going down, it won't go to other direction either before some 'cooling' time, about 30 seconds. Then it continues every time for some seconds, until again full stop.

Can it be a single relay, since the problem is to both directions?

It's like some thermo circuit breaker would cut it, since it works like this "like a machine" seemingly forever. I saw these small circuit breakers near the relays and also inside the powerbox, but none of them was triggered. Also the round 50A breaker behind the glove compartment was not triggered.

Any tips?
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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby JAB » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:53 am

Macho,

There is a breaker within the hydraulic motor.
It is unlikely that the exact same symptom (motor shutoff) would be caused by both the top up and top down relays.

I took a look at your various posts over the last two years.
It appears that your 62 vert still has its original Dot 3 brake fluid contaminated components, but you flushed the Dot 3 brake fluid out two years ago and replaced it with Type F trans fluid.

SO....

You believe the problem is one or both of the top up and top down relays. Go ahead and replace them with new. You need to get past that concern/potential problem. You can order them from me, or one of the other vendors.

Once the relays are replaced, I think you will still have the same symptom.
You need to replace ALL OF THE HYDRAULIC COMPONENTS. The Dot 3 fluid created damage within the motor, cylinders, lines and solenoids. No amount of flushing can overcome the damage.
I would replace the solenoids as well. They can be flushed out, but after 50 years can leak internally. This internal leakage will cause oddball symptoms (like the deck lid trying to close when the top is coming out of the trunk)
You can order these parts from http://www.hydroe.com.

This work NEEDS TO BE DONE in order for you to get the system to work reliably AND to eliminate the hydraulic system as being a suspect when resolving any further problems found after the replacement.
Until these components are replaced, there is no limit to the frustration or number of hours you can spend trying to chase down potential problems related to hydraulic components.

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Re: Convertible Top Relay Pin Out

Postby Macho » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:38 am

JAB wrote:There is a breaker within the hydraulic motor.

So this is the only breaker regarding the pump, there are no other ones elsewhere in the car that could also cut it out?

When the problem comes, the voltage on the pump wires goes to zero when I measured it with a multimeter. Thats why I don't think it is the pump. I could still double check and hardwire the pump running when the problem is on to see if it starts or not.
I did measure the pump amperage draw when the roof is coming up from the trunk, it was 25A. Don't know if anybody else has measured this, then it would be possible to compare the load? The bottom of the pump does not get even warm to touch before it already cuts out.

JAB wrote:It appears that your 62 vert still has its original Dot 3 brake fluid contaminated components, but you flushed the Dot 3 brake fluid out two years ago and replaced it with Type F trans fluid.

The pump and the hydraulic system seem to work perfect with Type F, I took everything apart and off the car two years ago and flushed and cleaned very carefully, nothing is contaminated anymore. Even changed the fluid later one more time, just to be sure. Fluid is still clear red. No leaks. Top moves very quickly and smoothly when it's moving and also all the joints I have greased just for future longevity of the mechanism.

JAB wrote:You believe the problem is one or both of the top up and top down relays. Go ahead and replace them with new. You need to get past that concern/potential problem. You can order them from me, or one of the other vendors.

Once the relays are replaced, I think you will still have the same symptom.

I don't actually believe that, if the relays are separate like you said, but since I noticed one relay had a slight hesitation sometimes, I would like to replace them both. These two relays seem to be at the end of their usable life when I looked inside of one.

JAB wrote:You need to replace ALL OF THE HYDRAULIC COMPONENTS. The Dot 3 fluid created damage within the motor, cylinders, lines and solenoids. No amount of flushing can overcome the damage.
I would replace the solenoids as well. They can be flushed out, but after 50 years can leak internally. This internal leakage will cause oddball symptoms (like the deck lid trying to close when the top is coming out of the trunk)
You can order these parts from http://www.hydroe.com.


Good point, but in my case so far I have not seen any evidence of this kind of damage in the hydraulic system, it works really nicely, also solenoids don't seem to be really leaking almost at all. For example when I left the roof to a position where it's hanging above the front seat, but not touching the frame, it came down less than half an inch in 12 hours.

Thank you for the link, I will take a look.

JAB wrote:This work NEEDS TO BE DONE in order for you to get the system to work reliably AND to eliminate the hydraulic system as being a suspect when resolving any further problems found after the replacement.
Until these components are replaced, there is no limit to the frustration or number of hours you can spend trying to chase down potential problems related to hydraulic components.


I should be able to distinguish the difference between an electric problem and a hydraulic one. So if I notice a problem in the hydraulics, I will start replacing the faulty components, of course. But I will not just blindly change all parts, like so many mechanics do who don't right away find a problem in a customers car.

And there would not even be a guarantee the system would work after changing all the parts. Couple of weeks ago I found a problem in one of the +12V feed wire to the relays. Outside, everything looked perfect but my hand felt a bit warm spot on the wire attachment screw. When I cut a piece off the wire, copper was oxidized an inch length from the inside. Sometimes you just need to take your time.

I am not so easily frustrated, I've come a long way in life because of my patience and I've learned that usually because of that, in the end, with the extra hours used, knowledge is at a good level and then it's possible to also guide others with similar problems. I'm even planning to get another one of these cars to my other location, so it's a good idea now to go an extra mile to have some real understanding. And since it's my hobby, you might even say I enjoy finding the culprits to some difficult malfunctions.
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