The term "Classic"

[Lugnut]

Good question. A discussion that could probably go on forever.

I think it most interesting that the photos of the '53-'55 Mercury concept car/lab (photos in the current Batmobile thread) indicates the design of the '60 Lincolns was already in the minds of some at the design studio.

In that car we see the "slab sides" the breezeway rear window, used on Mercury into the '60s and Lincolns of the late '50s. We also see what evolved into the Edsel's transmission controls in the steering column, and the upholstry pattern widely used in Ford's and T-birds of the late '50s and into the mid '60s.

Beyond that, we see the rear roof pilar that GM stole and used on '57 Caddy Eldorado Coupes and across its entire product line in '58.

[Bob Hubbard]

I would like to see some imput from insurance company represenatives that deal in strickly"classic car" insurance.

It would be interesting to see what they use as a ruller to determine what is, and isn't a classic.

[Joe Nemec]

Yes Bob, excellent question. I think that would shed some light on this topic...

[Barry Wolk]

I've asked Bob DeKorne of Hagerty Insurance to respond.

[linc64]

Here's how the California Senate has attempted to define a "classic car":

SB 1784 Karnette Classic Car Definition Chapter 107

Defines a collector motor vehicle as a motor vehicle owned by a collector that is used primarily in shows, parades, charitable functions, and historical exhibitions for display, maintenance, and preservation and is not used primarily for transportation.

Notice that the bill is titled CLASSIC Car Definition, and then they go on to define a COLLECTOR car!

[Barry Wolk]

This is Bob DeKorne of Hagerty Insurance's response:

"Hi Barry and fellow Lincoln enthusiasts: A challenging question to
answer in a single statement - one we obviously deal with hundreds of
times a day. Here's my best shot at it: A vehicle that, due to it's
care or reconditioning, holds a market value higher than it did when
purchased new.

That handles almost anything from the 60's and before quite easily -
even including most high production vehicles that were pretty mundane in
their day. It addresses the 70's cars from the "low horsepower/big
bumper" era if they are in great shape, too. It also addresses the
limited production cars or exotics from the 80's or 90's pretty well -
if they are used hard, they do depreciate and may not qualify for
collector car insurance. It also handles the rare exotics from today -
such as an Enzo, that sold for $650-$750 and are now trading above a
million.

The formula gets a little sticky with modified cars, which we try to
judge on a case by case basis. Take a "new build" street rod, for
example, where a guy spent $100K creating it (including labor). 9 out
of 10 wouldn't trade on the market for $100K, even if flawless and
undriven, so almost every one is "upside down" value wise right from the
start. In those cases, and really, any situation that is very unique,
comparables from the market or a valid appraisal are about as good as it
gets.

That being said, just owning such a car isn't a guarantee that a
collector car agency will be able to say "Yes" automatically. At
Hagerty, we profile the family drivers (driving record, past claims
history, storage situation, etc) as much or more than the car itself,
and both pieces have to fit. Experience in the hobby, size of the
fleet, intended usage, and the type of "daily driver" vehicles in the
household are also factors we consider.

We understand that collectors are often anticipating a rise in vehicle
value when making a purchase (hey, I want a good deal when I buy a car,
too!), as well as the "fun" factor in our hobby. Leave the "making
money" thought to the professionals, but obviously, we all like the
concept of an investment that also turns heads and is fun to drive.
That's why the market has been so strong the past 10 years. My
suggestions are simple - do your homework and get as much documentation as possible, buy the best condition you can find (afford), and own these beauties because you love them rather than to make money.

I'm available at bdekorne@hagerty.com or 231 933 3766 anytime. Hope to
see you all at Barrett Jackson in a couple of weeks, and in the
meantime, please drive safely and enjoy your cars!"

Bob DeKorne

[Bob Hubbard]

"Hi Barry and fellow Lincoln enthusiasts: A challenging question to
answer in a single statement - one we obviously deal with hundreds of
times a day. Here's my best shot at it: A vehicle that, due to it's
care or reconditioning, holds a market value higher than it did when
purchased new."


I know Mr Haggerty is in the business of classic insurance but, I have to respectively dissagree with him.
I do feel "some" consideration should be taken into effect regarding the condition of a vehicle for insurance purposes, but, I think age should be the main factor to consider.
If You were to walk through an auto salvage yard and come across a 1939 Desoto 4dr, in a severly rusted out condition, that vehicle would still be a "classic".
A 52 Kaiser in the same shape would still be a classic.
A 1929 rusted out Cadillac would still be a classic.
46 Continental missing front fenders would still be a classic.
I will always belive it is age, not condition that determines a classic.

[Barry Wolk]

I would like to see some imput from insurance company represenatives that deal in strickly"classic car" insurance.

It would be interesting to see what they use as a ruller to determine what is, and isn't a classic.

Didn't he answer your question? You asked for his perspective. If you were an insurance company would you want to insure your junkyard "classics"?

[Dan Szwarc]

What defines a classic car is more of an opinion than a fact.

Just be sure that you respectfully disagree with those with opinions that differ from your own as opposed to telling him or her that he or she is wrong.

[vancec]

Today I did a Google search on: CLASSIC CAR DEFINITION and got enough hits to keep me busy reading for weeks. Insurance institutions, government agencies, clubs, collectors, everybody has their own definitions for classic, antique, vintage, veteran, collectible, etc., etc., ad infinitim.

Maybe the real answer to the question is that there are many definitions of classic.

Vance

[Bob Hubbard]

"One of the most common questions asked on this Web Site is: "What exactly is a Classic Car?" The Club defines CCCA Classics or Full Classicâ„¢ Cars as "...fine or unusual motor cars which were built between and including the years 1925 to 1948".

It would appear, this organization agrees somewhat with my opinion as to what a classic is.
Being built between 1925 an 1948 certainly would put them in the catagory of "age".

They state"fine or unusual" as crteria but in the same sentence state the years they cosider to be a classic.
Using their statement as a yard stick, anything newer than 1948 regardless of how the automotive world looks at it. would not be a true classic.
Of cource, that is only one group's opinion.
I am sure there are many out there that will dissagree with them.
I have a feeling the answeres to this question are as varied as the answeres given on the transmission fluid thread.

[menemshaman]

This has been a very interesting thread considering the topic is about what ia a classic. It is a very good question and I feel all of the contributors to this topic have fleshed it out rather well.

In my view Classic means different things to different people, as has been mentioned here several times. I tend to believe that a "Classic" car is one that has garnered some measure of distinction whether it is due to style, mechanics, innovations etc.
The CCCA has its niche in the "old" car world, but to me is devoid of forward (or backard) thinking. They are stuck happily in their niche. I personally have no interest in their adjenda.

The word icon has been mentioned in this thred. This distinction is not only revelant, but places some classic automobiles ahead of others. In my humble opinion an iconic automobile is one that is fixed in the history of the American psyche. They are cars that evoke the emotions and feelings of their era, and bring them into the present day. Cars such as the 1955-1957 Thunderbirds, The 1957 Chevy, The Pontiac GTO and of course the 1961-1967 Lincolns to name some.

The Lincoln Continental of the 60's has been imprinted on the memory of America due to its radical departure in styling for the era, high engineering standards, and its forward looking warranty terms. A great deal of the Lincoln's icon status is derived from the Kennedy association with the vehicle. The Kennedy Administration hired the guy who ok'ed the re-design of the Lincoln Continental, and we all know who he is. President Kennedy ordered the Presidential motor pool to use these cars exclusively. The Lincoln swept into the 60's not only because of it's remarkable design and beauty, but also through a young President.

Through the creative efforts of Elwood Engle and his design team, MacNamara, Pesident of Ford and John F. Kennedy our Lincolns are not a footnote in American history, but a part of it.

Do you think the 60's Lincoln Continental is an icon? You bet it is! A grade A, true American Icon. I believe there are few automobiles that have acquired this kind of status.

My thoughts.................for the moment

[Bob Hubbard]

I brought this subject up on another board and wanted to share one response that I got.
As I said earlier, we all have an opinion about what a classic is.
It would appear the poster in this thread that I pasted from the other site has come up with a defenite line between classic and collector vehicle.

His reply is below :
"There's two status factors. Collectible and Classic. One is a variable and one is a constant.

The variable is collectible status. A car can be a collectible before it becomes a classic, and a car can be a classic and still not be a collectible for some time. Some cars are collectibles right off the bat and will never not be collectible, and some cars will never ever be collectibles. Also, there's some room for subjective opinion in whether a car is a collectible or not.

The constant is classic status. This one is much more simple, totally black and white with no greys. A classic is anything 25 years old or older. Period, no if's ands or buts. It's a constant. A 1981 Corvette is not a classic even though it's 1980 identical twin is. And a 1979 Omni is a classic even though it'll probably never have any real collector's value.

If there's a non-classic car that's a twin to a classic car (like a 1981 Corvette and a 1980 Corvette) They usually share comparable collectibility and retail value. For instance. A 1984 Lincoln Town Car is worth almost as much as a 1980 which shares it's exact styling. (even though one was called a continental and one was called a town car) That's assuming that the 80 had the 302 and not the 351, with the 351 the 80'd be worth a lot more and 80 was the only year they offered it outside the Mark series."

[Vitas]

NADA.com appears to think that anything 20 years or older is a classic car. There are also certain newer cars, especially in the sports car sub category, that are included under the classic car value category.

I believe some states offer classic or antique status to cars that are more than 20 years old.

[Lugnut]

A classic is anything 25 years old or older. Period, no if's ands or buts. It's a constant.

It is indeed the definition by some states for classic or antique car plates. However, just because a car is twenty-five years old in no way makes it a classic. A 1963 Plymouth Valiant would be well over twenty-five years of age, but few would dissagree that the only thing "Classic" about it was its classic representation of ugly; and its classic example of a poorly assembled vehicle made from cheap, crappy parts and materials. One could say the same about a Ford Pinto or the first Chevy Vega.

Neither age or market value can make a car a classic. Age alone can make a car collectible without it being a classic. Value can soar though a car is not a classic. Prices that often soar, often fall back to reality. A true classic will not suffer loss of value based upon common popularity of a given generation or fad.