63 Lincoln Sedan Window Relay?

[Dan Szwarc]

New Chinese repro relays can be crap.

[kingraph2]

On your fuse panel in the lower right corner is a series of breakers. The third one down is a 20 amp breaker for your window circuit.
Also let me apologize to Tony for calling the lock-out switch a bypass switch, I'll try to be more careful in the future.

[neilpierson]

Window circuit breaker is as kingraph2 describes. Wire leaving the window circuit breaker is Black-Yellow.  A Black-Yellow wire goes to the relay. I'm not able to physically trace the wire from circuit breaker to relay, but I think it's the same wire. This wire shows steady 12+ volts regardless of ignition switch position.

My latest theory is that the old relay is dead and the new one is flaky. With new relay installed, windows don't work but relay is chattering. I removed it from the car, grounded the case, and ran power from battery into the relay. No click, but it chattered intermittently. It chattered more when I shook it. Tried the same thing with the old relay--no click, no chatter. It just sulked. Think I should try another relay.

[frasern]

I missed this until now, my computer cought the Smith-Corona virus.
That relay needs to be fully installed in order to ground, and the signal needs to be constant. A bad ground internally, or a short, further along the circuit could be at play. Maybe try unplugging at the "lockout" switch, or inside the left kick area to isolate that part of the circuit, then see what happens to the relay. This will narrow down the problem. A short in the vehicle wiring, could have caused the first relay to fail, and you are trying to fix the symptom, rather than the cause.

Edit, I will add, If you rule out an external short, it may have one right inside the relay, the clicking you hear may be the circuit breaker doing it's job!
In an earlier post, you said John Cashman just wires around the relay, He is the Guru on these cars. You could try just plugging those wires together, as shown in the manual, and see if that works. If the clicking stops, the short is gone.

[neilpierson]

Fraser, I did a couple of tests that I didn't include in the thread. Connected the wire bringing power into the relay (Black-Yellow) to ground via a voltmeter. Steady 12+ volts. Also, chattering occurs when relay is out of the car, case grounded, and attached directly to battery positive. So I don't think it's in the circuit going into the relay. Also, I jumped the relay by connecting the wire bringing power out of the relay (Red-Yellow) to the battery positive, and the windows work normally. That seems to indicate that there is no problem between relay and windows. Another relay is on the way. Fingers (not wires) crossed that it works and doesn't get wrecked by a circuit problem.

[frasern]

It's hard to diagnose from a distance, but it sounds like you have already checked both sides of the relay, and tested the relay itself. The relay I tested clicked on with power to the signal, then clicked off without it. No stuttering.
Chattering sounds like a defective part, but it was worth all the testing to confirm that before throwing more money away, hopefully the next one works better.
Side note, before all this, did the windows work with the key off? The wiring diagram suggests they did.

[neilpierson]

Damn, I just don't remember how the windows operated. Will let you know when I get them working again. The owner's manual has an interesting note on this. It says a sedan comes with the windows working only when the key is turned to the left or right. But if you want them to work full-time, your Lincoln dealer will make a minor wiring change at no charge. Since they specify "sedan," maybe the convertible was different. The engineers got into no end of mischief on these cars.

[Dan Szwarc]

This whole thread is why John Cashman just splices the power wires together.

[neilpierson]

I have trust issues with controlling a lot of juice through those crappy window switches.

[TonyC]

That apparently was a fairly popular dealer-level conversion, I'm betting not just for Lincolns but for all makes that had electric window systems, as some people back then did not like the idea of windows that would not open or close when the car was off. The factory authorized dealers to make changes to the wiring so the window system was always hot, even advertising that mod in owner's manuals...until about '68 if I remember correctly, after consequences started to occur. The main problem is that moisture is liable to get into the door controls; when that happens, one of two things can happen: 1, the moisture will bridge the circuit and cause the windows to run up or down on their own, eventually overloading the circuit and burning out the switches or motors; or 2, shorting out the circuits and causing a door and dash fire. I don't know how many cars met their ends this way, but some did; Ron Baker once spoke of a convertible in England that suffered a door and dash fire because the owner had the window circuit altered to stay always hot (maybe not the then-owner, but maybe a previous one).

I also voice Ron Baker's warning from back then: Don't do that mod, not if you value the existence of your car. And any Suicide owner ought to value the existence of their car.

---Tony

[Mike]

If its going to be a problem getting a relay that works there shouldn't be any reason why you can't replace it with a normal one. At least that's safer then having full power to the system all the time.

I have trust issues with controlling a lot of juice through those crappy window switches.

The same power goes thru the window switches no matter what. The relay is only to save load on the ignition switch.

[frasern]

The circuit breaker protects against shorts, not the relay. Yes, it is safer to cut power when not required, which is why it was added. Old, dry dusty wiring adds to the mix. If you are concerned about fire, make sure the breaker is working correctly, or even replace it with a fuse.
My '62 Wildcat windows are hot at all times, and that is correct as per the schematic. It can sit all winter and start in the spring, no power leaks down. My "62 Lincoln's wiring shows the windows hot at all times, and I have found no relay. (can't verify until I reattach some disconnected plugs).
Most modern cars have lots of systems hot when parked, my Explorer will kill a battery in a couple of weeks if unused, my neighbours Caddy. would only last a few days!

As for converting, the dealers job is to give the customers what they want, and at that time, some wanted full time windows. As people became accustomed to windows only working with the key, the conversions stopped. Today, If windows were live, criminals would break in that way, and the public would demand they not work without a key.

Edit; The relay has a 1961 Ford/Mercury part # (C1A_) so not a unique to Lincoln part. Should not be all that hard to replace, but be aware of the amperage, if retrofitting.

[TonyC]

Not always; a fire can start well before the circuit breaker trips. E.G.: Back in the early-'90s, when I was trying to retrofit lighted visors into my grand's Man-Of-War, the power wire grounded against the roof without my knowing, and when I placed the end on a circuit breaker, the whole wire erupted into flame. I was, thankfully, able to smother it before it caught the rest of the dash, but the circuit breaker tripped after the fact. Same thing can happen, and apparently has happened to other cars in the past, where the window circuits are concerned...and once a fire gets ahold of fueling material, the ignition source can disappear and the fire will still rage on.

On a side note, when I did the same upgrade to Frankenstein, I remembered what happened last time; so the power wires from the circuit breakers to the visors have in-line fuses in them to serve as a check of sorts and prevent the same thing from happening. Luckily, I haven't had a similar incident to verify whether that's a good fail-safe.

---Tony

[neilpierson]

I got a replacement relay from Brewer Classic Lincolns, and the windows work! (Insert confetti drop here.) Many, many thanks to everyone who made suggestions, shared knowledge, or provided information based on their vehicles. As promised, here is a summary of what we found out:

All windows on our 1963 sedan stopped working after I crossed battery cables. Relays were not clicking. Our car has a power window safety relay, #C1AF-14677-A, located behind the right kick panel. From diagrams and schematics, it appears that on convertibles, the relay is located behind the splash panel to the rear of the right front wheel well, but I haven't confirmed. On our car, three wires connect to the relay: Black-Yellow is power from the circuit breaker into the relay. Red-Yellow is power out of the relay to the window motors. Brown-Red is the signal to the relay. The relay is grounded via the case mounting screws.

Testing for voltage showed that the relay on our car was getting steady power in through Black-Yellow but nothing coming out through Red-Yellow. The windows operated normally when the relay was jumped by connecting the battery directly to the Red-Yellow wire.

On our car, windows do not operate when ignition switch is off. It appears that this was standard for sedans, but owners could have that modified so that windows worked with ignition off. Some cars may have been modified to bypass the relay altogether, but that may make them more susceptible to fire.

Will do a separate note with findings on the wiring diagrams and schematics.

[neilpierson]

Observations about the manuals:

The 1961 shop manual, page 11-8, has a diagram and schematic of the power window circuit for the sedan. No relay is shown. There is no updated diagram or schematic in the 62-63 supplement.

The 1960-1963 Lincoln Continental/Mercury/Meteor/Comet Master Parts Catalog-Chassis--whew!--lists "Relay (Window Regulator) Safety part #C1AF-14677-A for all 1963 Lincolns on page 1020. The 1963 Lincoln wiring diagram on page 937 does not show that part number.

The large Vehicle Wiring Diagrams/Ford Motor Company book (Form 7795-P) includes a Power Windows and Seats Wiring Diagram for the 1963 Lincoln on page I.6.M.1. This diagram is of a convertible. The components and their locations are substantially different on a sedan. In the lower left corner, the diagram shows a "window regulator safety relay" which appears to be on the outside of the right front kick panel and accessed from the right front wheel well by removing the splash shield.

This book also has a Power Windows Schematic on page I.6.M.2. From the insane complexity, I think this is also for a convertible. In the lower left corner, the schematic shows a "window regulator safety relay."