Sluggish Start-Up Issue

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TonyC
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Re: Sluggish Start-Up Issue

Post by TonyC »

Bumping to get a recommendation. Today, I was doing some brainstorming, based on the behavior of the car every time I tried cranking it. To those who suggested a possible starter problem, I apologize for dismissing that idea; I only did that based on the starter test at O'Reilly did shortly before the coma, which suggested no problems. I am now beginning to wonder if there are in fact problems that their test could not pick up, based on the behavior of the starter under differing conditions.

Before I replaced the heads, the starter did seem to be acting sluggish on cranking, even with a full battery. When I replaced the heads, oblivious of the excessive machining that prevented all the valves from closing and thus preventing any compression, it felt like it took three times the effort to hand-turn the engine, but the starter spun it quickly, with an odd-sounding electric whirring noise as if the crankshaft was free-spinning (which as it turned out was a result of all 16 valves being held open no matter how the camshaft rotated). Since then I shimmed the rocker shafts to allow the valves to close, only as an experiment; the chugging effect that is supposed to be there is back, but the turnover is also once again sluggish, even on a full battery, as if for some reason the engine building compression is taxing the starter.

Reading back on several responses here that the starter could be wearing out, I am beginning to think they may be right; I'd like just one person to tell me that it is possible the starter might be getting weak, despite what O'Reilly told me two months ago. If it's even possible, then I'm thinking about putting in for a new starter; maybe if I find the receipt for this one from 11 years ago, I might be able to get it for free. I know the starter was not the cause of the whole thing, but if it could possibly be contributing to blocking the solution, then I'm prepared to throw one more part at the problem.

---Tony
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet, just because there is a picture with a quote next to it." (Abraham Lincoln, 1866)
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1966 Continental Sedan, affectionately known as "Frankenstein" until body restoration is done (to be renamed "General Sherman" on that event)
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action
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Re: Sluggish Start-Up Issue

Post by action »

Have you done a compression test since the new heads were installed?

No matter how fast or how slow the started spins, if the valves do not close (the current guess) no compression can be built up.
Based on what I am reading of your posting you are making an assumption based on the sound of things. That can lead to incorrectness. If that is what you are willing to risk, keep going in that direction. My judgement about that is driving through the fog.

If you are looking to remove some unknowns, do a compression check. As long as the engine spins you will get something
Either zero or close to zero compression - with which your assumption of non-closing valves has merit
However if there is compression over 30 to 50 PSI, yeah it could be low because of a weak starter. But at least you know the combustion chamber is closed. So valves close, piston rings at least seal to some degree and cam/crank have some alignment since the new chain was installed.

It the engine cranks slow, could be battery or starter. Take both the battery and starter out of the car and schlep over to a place that will test. You have put those two items on extreme duty cycle with the non-starting engine. They could be bad, but who knows.

With fuel, ignition and compression most engines will fire off. May not run well but at least show some signs of life. From what you have posted (that I have read) the engine isn't firing at this point. If that is true, what of the 3 are not working? fuel, ignition and compression

Work from known to unknown
fuel, ignition and compression - doing a compression check will bring something from the unknown to the known
Work from easy to difficult


Action
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2006 Lincoln Navigator Limited 5.4l 3V
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1970 Continental Mark III Triple Black 460 4v, C6, 2.80 (Used for Woodward Dream Cruise or just generally stored in Michigan)
1966 Lincoln Continental 4DR Convertible 462 4v, C6, 3.00
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TonyC
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Re: Sluggish Start-Up Issue

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Well, I elaborated on my other post in "Engine and Drivetrain," but I was thinking nobody saw it or cared. I did have compression and leak-down tests done nearly two weeks ago, at the Fort Riley auto shop. There was absolutely no sign of compression in any cylinder, and the leak-down indicated a steady 88% leakage in every cylinder. Now, the likelihood of every ring on every piston blowing out simultaneously is virtually nil; so based on that, a bit more examination revealed the noise of rushing air from every spark plug hole and from the carburetor. That was when I learned that the new heads had so much meat taken off them that the valves would not close properly, all being held open about 2mm when they're supposed to be fully closed. I'm still waiting on new pushrods from the outfit you mentioned (Smith Brothers Pushrods in Oregon), in the meantime I shimmed the rocker shafts about 2mm to make the valves close better. And this is where I'm at with the starter: Before I shimmed the shafts, it took me three times the effort to hand-turn the engine, but with the starter it seemed to spin almost freewheel, with a whirring noise instead of the proper chugging noise the engine should give as it builds compression. After I shimmed the shafts, I can hand-turn the engine with the normal effort, and the chugging noise is back, but the starter turns over very slowly, even on a full battery (which I have charged up I-don't-even-know-how-many times over the past two months). I know it can't be the battery because the charger works on it with no warning signs of fried cells or anything. So, if the starter gets sluggish as the pistons build compression but not when they don't, could that be a sign that the starter may be wearing down?

If so, then I'll put in for a replacement. If not, then I'll hold off and keep waiting for those pushrods to come in...although it's approaching two weeks since they took payment, and every day I have to keep waiting is taxing on the little patience I've been taught to have.

---Tony
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet, just because there is a picture with a quote next to it." (Abraham Lincoln, 1866)
"Question Authority!"

1966 Continental Sedan, affectionately known as "Frankenstein" until body restoration is done (to be renamed "General Sherman" on that event)
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Re: Sluggish Start-Up Issue

Post by action »

TonyC wrote:
I know it can't be the battery because the charger works on it with no warning signs of fried cells or anything. So, if the starter gets sluggish as the pistons build compression but not when they don't, could that be a sign that the starter may be wearing down?

If so, then I'll put in for a replacement. If not, then I'll hold off and keep waiting for those pushrods to come in...although it's approaching two weeks since they took payment, and every day I have to keep waiting is taxing on the little patience I've been taught to have.

---Tony
The starter has a harder job pushing against the compression of an engine. Then when there is no compression. (Like with the spark plugs removed)
You can run and get replacement parts. But diagnosing would be a better first step.
I would not assume the battery is good just because it accepts a charge. If the battery does not accept a charge it is bad. However a battery that can not store as much current as it once did can accept a charge. Like in the case of the top of the plates of a battery are sulfated. That kind of battery situation will accept a charge and charge up rather fast. It will never put out the current it once did. That will show up in a battery load test.
https://www.freeasestudyguides.com/batt ... ts-a1.html

Action
Phoenix - Yeah, it's hot, however it's a dry heat
2006 Lincoln Navigator Limited 5.4l 3V
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII 2DR Coupe Diamond Anniversary 4.6l DOHC, 4R70W, 3.07
1970 Continental Mark III Triple Black 460 4v, C6, 2.80 (Used for Woodward Dream Cruise or just generally stored in Michigan)
1966 Lincoln Continental 4DR Convertible 462 4v, C6, 3.00
1966 Mercury Park Lane 4DR Breezeway 410 4v, C6, 2.80
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tomo
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Re: Sluggish Start-Up Issue

Post by tomo »

Did you ever do the voltage drop tests that I recommended on the first page of this post? It will give you confidence in the cables and other components in the starting circuit.
Tom O'Donnell
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TonyC
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Re: Sluggish Start-Up Issue

Post by TonyC »

I haven't, Tom, sorry to admit; at the time I was prepared to take O'Reilly's diagnosis as definitive reassurance, as I figure their equipment would detect voltage or amperage drops. And, there's something I learned today that I was very wrong about: I found the receipts for this starter, and it turns out that it's only about four years old, not eleven; I replaced it in November 2016. I don't understand why I did not remember that until now. But, that alone tells me that my hypothesis may be a bust, anyway. I've therefore shelved the idea of getting another starter, unless voltage tests tell me that's the way to go.

I don't have an amperage meter, so I cannot do any amp-draw tests; but I have a voltage meter, although I'm not sure whether the cables are long enough to reach between the battery and starter. Maybe I'll at least do those tests tomorrow; I just don't have the motivation to do them today, even though the battery is fully charged again. I injured a finger on the engine Thursday, and it's still hurting badly. And besides, without a new set of pushrods, I'm thinking that anything I do at this point is extraneous.

---Tony

Follow-up, 8 May: After installing and very carefully dialing in the new pushrods, I tried cranking the engine again. Sluggish turnover, naturally. With only three long (about 30 seconds or less each) attempts, the battery ran down, after I had charged it up just yesterday. When I hooked it to the charger about an hour ago, it read 12.6 volts, lower than the 12.9 I was used to seeing; right now as I edit this, I can hear the charger whirring, meaning it's pushing in a lot of power to charge the thing. I'm beginning to suspect the starter again, despite its age, since the one before it needed replacing after about three years of use (it was actually six years, but three of those the car was dormant while I was in Germany). When the battery's charged up again, I'm going to go with Tom's guidance on the first page, do voltage-drop tests. If the voltage tests Tom recommended suggest a weak starter, then I'm pulling out that receipt and seeing what I can do to secure a new one. With all I've done so far, there is no reason for that engine to not fire up and run; yet, it isn't.
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet, just because there is a picture with a quote next to it." (Abraham Lincoln, 1866)
"Question Authority!"

1966 Continental Sedan, affectionately known as "Frankenstein" until body restoration is done (to be renamed "General Sherman" on that event)
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