66 67 68 69 Inside turn signal problem: SOLVED!

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66 67 68 69 Inside turn signal problem: SOLVED!

Post by Dan Szwarc »

At least on paper. Requires cutting one or two wires and jumpering another.

Details coming. Please post if you need this fix.

Update: I thought I had it, but I didn't. I'm going to come up with a fix for this.

Update 2: SOLVED! Click here for the solution.
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Re: 66 & 67 Inside turn signal problem solved!

Post by tsa »

Im interested
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Re: 66 & 67 Inside turn signal problem solved!

Post by Dan Szwarc »

I'm very busy tonight, but want to get this posted.
The trouble is two-fold. The bulb-out relay and the TS select relay. Neither are properly described in the 66 schematics, but they are there. I had to reverse engineer how they work together, redraw the circuit, then determine how to fix

Teaser pic.
Basic 66 Turn signal Schematic
Basic 66 Turn signal Schematic
I'm in the process of redrawing it and annotating it for all to see.
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Re: 66 & 67 Inside turn signal problem solved!

Post by LC67Vert »

The inside turn signal indicator lights on my dash work the first and second (and sometimes the third) flash when I put on my turn signal, but then stop flashing while the exterior turn signals continue to flash. Is this the problem that you are referring to?
Jeff
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Dan Szwarc
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Re: 66 & 67 Inside turn signal problem solved!

Post by Dan Szwarc »

Eeyup. I can fix it.

I ran into a problem and I'm back to the drawing board, but I can still
Fix it. It just won't be as easy as I thought.
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Re: 66 & 67 Inside turn signal problem: Developing a solutio

Post by LithiumCobalt »

Can't you just eliminate the two relays and splice into the light signal circuit directly to feed the dash indicators? All of these relays seem like they just add unnecessary complexity.
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Re: 66 & 67 Inside turn signal problem: Developing a solutio

Post by Dan Szwarc »

Sure, if you want to butcher the whole system and have wires running inside and outside of the cabin and engine bay.
My solution will be simple, but elegant. And it will preserve the bulb-out function (if possible).
Basic 66 TS Circuit.png
Here's the problem. On many cars, the relay K1 above, doesn't trigger at all and the inside TS indicators don't come on at all or flash quickly then go out, or flash once or twice, then never again. Bypassing K1 will prevent the interior indicators from working at all.

One could jump the Yellow and the White-black wires to the same lines as the outside Turn signals, but where do you make the splices and how to you do it? I'd rather not defeat the purpose of the wiring, but improve on it and do it without having to have anything.
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Re: 66 & 67 Inside turn signal problem: Developing a solutio

Post by ravnlinc »

Yes I think my problem with the interior turn signal lights is the current sensing relay on the fire wall. I had the one flash then stop with conventional bulbs. Once I converted to LED tail lights with sequential flashers, the current is too low to trigger. I even tried to increase the sensitivity of the relay but not enough. If there is a simple way to bypass the relay, I am for it.

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Re: 66 & 67 Inside turn signal problem: Developing a solutio

Post by LithiumCobalt »

Dan Szwarc wrote:Sure, if you want to butcher the whole system and have wires running inside and outside of the cabin and engine bay.
My solution will be simple, but elegant. And it will preserve the bulb-out function (if possible).

Here's the problem. On many cars, the relay K1 above, doesn't trigger at all and the inside TS indicators don't come on at all or flash quickly then go out, or flash once or twice, then never again. Bypassing K1 will prevent the interior indicators from working at all.

One could jump the Yellow and the White-black wires to the same lines as the outside Turn signals, but where do you make the splices and how to you do it? I'd rather not defeat the purpose of the wiring, but improve on it and do it without having to have anything.
Is it possible to have the K1 relay rebuilt? I don't mean to sound like it's simplistic. Just asking questions for my education. Looking forward to your solution. Seems like this is a problem, at some point, for almost everyone.
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Re: 66 & 67 Inside turn signal problem: Developing a solutio

Post by TonyC »

Dan, I'm very interested with what you end up with! On Frankenstein, my big problem is that the right-hand dash light works normally but the left doesn't. In the past, when I tried to diagnose the problem, I never got both working properly without jumping. And numerous inspections showed nothing wired in wrong. The last thing I did was thread a jumper wire from the left-hand bulb to an outside left-turn wire in the main harness (the front one, so it wouldn't light up when I applied the brakes); it works, but it flashes dimmer than the right, and naturally the bulb-out warning circuit won't work for the left side. And it's a major frustration--I just hate lights that don't work like they should! :smt011 (On a distantly-related note, I really need to replace the signal sensor in the fuel sender, or maybe the entire sender, to get the stupid low-fuel light to work--that would be nice too. :? )

I had opened and inspected--even field-tested while open--the relay that goes to the dash lights and never could figure why the current wouldn't go to the left-hand circuit.

Whatever your solution ultimately is, I'll be watching for it, so I can try it on Frankenstein when I can get back to him.

---Tony
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Re: 66 & 67 Inside turn signal problem: Developing a solutio

Post by ekm330 »

LithiumCobalt wrote: Is it possible to have the K1 relay rebuilt? I don't mean to sound like it's simplistic. Just asking questions for my education. Looking forward to your solution. Seems like this is a problem, at some point, for almost everyone.
Yep. I have had two relays rebuild for me by LL. I just sent them down to John Harrell and I get them back within three days. They did my window relay and my turn signal power relay. Easy and fast!
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Re: 66 & 67 Inside turn signal problem: Developing a solutio

Post by Dan Szwarc »

ekm330 wrote:Yep. I have had two relays rebuild for me by LL. I just sent them down to John Harrell and I get them back within three days. They did my window relay and my turn signal power relay. Easy and fast!
The answer is yes, you can, but NO it will NOT fix the problem. The current-sensing coil cannot be adjusted unless someone rewinds it with more turns to increase the magnetic pull for the lower current of an older car. Not likely.

If the relay stays dry and doesn't get rusted-up, the contacts almost never wear out. That's because they only carry the current of the K2 relay in my diagram, which is about 0.5 amps. This is nothing for a relay.

I asked John Cashman if he knew of a fix for the inside indicators not working and he said no. If Cashman doesn't know it, it hasn't been done. My team of crack EEs will engineer a solution. Stay tuned.
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Re: 66 & 67 Inside turn signal problem: Developing a solutio

Post by LithiumCobalt »

ekm330 wrote:
LithiumCobalt wrote: Is it possible to have the K1 relay rebuilt? I don't mean to sound like it's simplistic. Just asking questions for my education. Looking forward to your solution. Seems like this is a problem, at some point, for almost everyone.
Yep. I have had two relays rebuild for me by LL. I just sent them down to John Harrell and I get them back within three days. They did my window relay and my turn signal power relay. Easy and fast!
I knew they did the window safety relay as I had them rebuild the one for the convertible. I just wondered if the K1 relay was special or something as that seems to be the cause of the indicator light grief?
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Re: 66 & 67 Inside turn signal problem: Developing a solutio

Post by LithiumCobalt »

Dan Szwarc wrote:
ekm330 wrote:Yep. I have had two relays rebuild for me by LL. I just sent them down to John Harrell and I get them back within three days. They did my window relay and my turn signal power relay. Easy and fast!
The answer is yes, you can, but NO it will NOT fix the problem. The current-sensing coil cannot be adjusted unless someone rewinds it with more turns to increase the magnetic pull for the lower current of an older car. Not likely.

If the relay stays dry and doesn't get rusted-up, the contacts almost never wear out. That's because they only carry the current of the K2 relay in my diagram, which is about 0.5 amps. This is nothing for a relay.

I asked John Cashman if he knew of a fix for the inside indicators not working and he said no. If Cashman doesn't know it, it hasn't been done. My team of crack EEs will engineer a solution. Stay tuned.
So, is the issue low current due to some other problem or is it the relay was not engineered right from the start?
Nick
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Re: 66 & 67 Inside turn signal problem: Developing a solutio

Post by Dan Szwarc »

The problem is the increase in resistance of all the connections and wiring over the last 40-50 years. The relay is properly designed. The wiring was not designed to last this long.
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