462 Crank driven power steering upgrade

[action]

I saw that price and snickered.

>>>>Action

[burnski]

not saying i bought it, but there is obviously a demand for it. And the questions was whether an alternative exists, which it does.

[action]

Compared to a Baker's pump ….

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-1968-Linc ... SwiBFdiny7

But I have seen owners spend more money than that on less.

>>>>Action

[Solid]

Two comments: Dexron came out in 1967 to replace Type A, and whale oil bases went away not long after when they were banned in 1973 in the US, so all fluids in the 60’s and 70’s cannot be the same. Compatible yes, the same no.

Second, I think this kit is a cool idea, but I feel like this could’ve been done more easily with an electric PS pump and the blank plate behind the balancer. Plenty of cheap smaller cars use them so they can’t be that expensive and then mounting and installation are trivial. Maybe even just a sleeve to turn the dead crank pump into a pass through would be cooler than the full on billet blank plate.

[essenz]

I'll call Carl and get more info on the kit, $1300 is steap, but there is the convenience of it.

Its basically what I was planning to do. Use the sleeve from the original pump, slide it over the cranckshaft key, then use the back half of the pump housing to seal the timing cover. To save money, I was going to just use the orignal AC pulleys/brackets to drive a PS pump from a 1970 Mark III. The only fabrication is the adapter plate to mount the 1970 pump somewhere on the AC compressor bracket such that the pulley's line up - I'll get a Gates belt to match the size, and use the AC idler pulley to apply tension. My method is more work, but I estimate it to cost: $200 for the missing AC parts I dont have + $100 for the 1970 PS pump with reservoir + $30 for the belt + $120 for misc metal/bolt to fabricate an adapter/mounting plate = $450. If I wanted to get crazy, I could CAD the adapter plate and have it CNC milled.

I curious as to what pump Carl's kit uses.

[Solid]

You could get a used or rebuilt electric power steering pump for something like an MR2 or a Mini and it would just be hoses wires and a relay, no belts, mount anywhere that's open.

[essenz]

My only concern with an electric pump is finding one thats rated for 1200psi, and also if the pump is designed to run modern PS fluid, how that will effect the steering gearbox and the wiper motor which were designed to run on Type F.

[Solid]

My only concern with an electric pump is finding one thats rated for 1200psi, and also if the pump is designed to run modern PS fluid, how that will effect the steering gearbox and the wiper motor which were designed to run on Type F.

Pressure would be worth checking to ensure it is not too far off. I poked around a bit and I think you'll find they are generally pretty close. Nominal 71 bar on the Mercedes A 168 466 05 01 pump is ~1030 PSI - probably fine compared to a 50 year old mechanism. Another factor worth considering is that you'd most likely gain some horsepower using an electric vs crank driven. FWIW, there are a lot of cars built over the past decade or so that used electric ones, which you may be able to find cheaper or in configurations that you like better for mounting etc. My example was just what came to mind immediately.

As for fluids, you probably don't need to worry about it, because if you've already filled it with Type F you've already filled it with the wrong fluid and done no harm. To be pedantic in a thread where I already have been, the Lincoln's PS and wiper system were designed to run on Type A suffix A, which was replaced by Dexron because Type A Suffix A was a GM specification and Dexron is the backwards-compatible update to Type A, Suffix A. Dexron originally was developed to switch to a mineral base from a whale oil base, and probably as a bonus they were able to increase the duty cycle before a change was needed. Dexron II and III are easily thought of as backwards compatible upgrades to Dexron. Like in the transmission, Type F works in the PS/wiper system just fine. Why? Because it's an incompressible fluid with similar viscosity that won't corrode things and can lubricate parts that it passes across and carry debris in suspension until it is filtered out. These fluids are not magic.

[TonyC]

Actually, I think this debate effectively nullifies any arguments against my own aspirations regarding mirrors. If it can be done, why not do it? Of course, I cannot do it right now...but I don't expect that to be the case forever.

If you want to do that conversion to the steering and have the money to burn on that setup, then you're welcome to do so. It may even prove helpful, just in case there are latent flaws in the conversion design that might cause fluid losses like oil; anyone who experiences that can then warn the rest of us and maybe even come up with ways to overcome any design flaws. BUT, if you do so, DO NOT trash the old pumps! The remaining Usual Suspects can still get them back up to speed, and some of us still prefer the OEM design and do not consider this conversion a need. That said, I will reiterate that whoever came up with that conversion was brilliant. It looks like they took the old '50s design of power steering systems, reproduced it, and with a few additional created parts made it possible to overcome the major obstacles I touched on earlier. However, I do have one concern with that kit: How would one adjust the tension of the belt? I did not see any provision in the parts for a torque bar or pry bar to tighten the belt, which is a critical concern; if the belt is too loose, the steering wheel will jam and squeal. Now, many makes provided for adjustment with a thick bracket that the pump attached to, which had a square hole in it for a torque bar to allow the pump to be pulled outward; but some makes did not (case in point: Chevrolet in the '80s—I remember wasting a P/S pump/reservoir trying to adjust the belt because there was no provision for a torque bar, and I wrecked the reservoir by applying a pry bar to it trying to tense up the belt). Because I did not see anything in the pictures of the kit parts that would allow for a torque bar to adjust the tension, I fear that pressing a pry bar against the pump itself could damage it. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the pump is cast hard enough to handle that...but that would have to be confirmed by the seller. Again, at this point, it's not a practically competitive alternative to OEM repair...but if OEM repair goes the way of the do-do, which could happen eventually, then it would be a good conversion to keep our cars running well into the future.

I still disagree with Solid to an extent. At least where '66 and up are concerned, the P/S system specifically demands Type F, not any Dexron-compatible fluid. And there are incompatible differences in the formulas of Dexron and Type F, so mixing them will cause you headaches; you would need to flush out the system thoroughly of any Type F residue if you want to make your Lincoln more GM-like (not a preference for me). Can't and won't speak for earlier systems, but I do know that to be the case with '66 and up.

---Tony

[Solid]

The blank plate they are milling is not a lot of steps away from being a replacement for a worn out casting. Rough the surface and paint black and you’d never know behind the harmonic balancer.

Type A was replaced by Dexron because Type A was made using a whale oil base that was no longer available. Dex III is backwards compatible with II and original Dex and is the correct replacement for Type A Suffix A. I know this used to be a weird holy war but there is no reason to debate it when the history of these fluids is now accessible to anyone who googles it. Type F was created by Ford so that they did not have to recommend a "GM" fluid, but it is not and never was created as a replacement for Type A.

[skid]

I think about replacing the crank pump on my 64 ALL THE TIME- because mine growls like an angry wolf all the time. Been doing it since I installed a hydroboost many years ago.
I've even pulled the pump apart myself, carefully lapping burrs off the rotor & rollers, facing the cover & housing with crocus, etc. (this is more than most 'rebuild' services really do btw). I Put it all back together and it still growls. It's never gonna fail but the noise drives me nuts and it's embarrassing when someone is looking at this cool car and all we can hear is _R_R_R_R_R_R_R_R_R_.

My 64 is my daily driver and it frustrates me to no end, having a weird obsolete 'thing' making all this noise and repair/replacement options are very limited.

So yeah, I think about fabbing up something like our man Carl made. Mine wouldn't be nearly as pretty but it wouldn't cost me that kind of dough, either.

[burnski]

Another very common PS pump substitute I've been seeing alot of lately is remove the guts from the stock pump so it's just the housing and sleeve and fill out with grease. Then get an electric PS pump from an 05-13 Volvo S40/60/70 and Mount it in the fender behind the driver side headlight.