The definitive answer on how many Mark IIs were made.

[action]

This may be taking the thread off topic and I am willing to take the heat.

I have never had a car judged so I am ignorant on the process. I am assuming from the above that points are deducted for things that are not correct. So one starts with 100 points untill the car is inspected and the points are subtracted from 100. Versus starting from zero and adding for things that are correct????

Does this make sense?

And having met Barry and his collection, I know that Barry doesn't have a 100% interest in Lincolns from a technical aspect. He collects things of art. This is evident by looking at his home. And in this case the item is a thing that is "Continental". And a Mark II was built from the Continental Division. The only car built from the division that was created seperately from the Ford, Lincoln and Mercury Divisions. Later it was absorbed by Lincoln and that is another story. So his interest in this car is from his passion about things that are "Continental" and beautiful.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

[W. Higgins]

I think you misunderstand me. A Concours is nothing more than a beauty contest. The judging is subjective. A lot of it is based on the "WOW" factor.

I haven't misunderstood you, you included this in the topic:

I would love to show my car at LCOC events but I swore that I would never again do a points judged show as I like people telling me what they like about the car, not what's "wrong" with it.

And it is that to which I was referring, and the comments that followed. They are just different types of shows with different purposes, nothing wrong with that. I've been to concours to look, but would have no interest in them if the only influential factor for awards was "peoples choice" or what someone thought was prettiest (though there are other criteria at most). I have no interest in owning something because it meets someone elses approval, I own what I own because I like it. I liked '58 - '60's before they started becoming popular.

Even the LCOC uses concours type judging to some degree as the cosmetic appearance isn't judged on authenticity. Some periods had somewhat orange peeley paint, none had rubbed out valve covers, and the chrome was seldom as good as what we see at shows now.

So, basically, DB summed it up better than I did. Take 'em off the top, or off the bottom, points are still points no matter how you get them. It is usally just easier to pick off the few things that are wrong than to verify the many things that are correct.


Another question: I saw the declined authenticity bit about your Mark II in the last issue of the magazine. You say:

which led to the rumors that the car was done in someone's backyard in Florida.

Why couldn't the story of H&E modifying your particular car be a rumor, too? Maybe they did do one and it just wasn't yours. Makes no difference to me, and if it was proved to be done by H&E, I don't think it should be declined by the addition of the metal boot. It might not get all its authenticity points, but that wouldn't change the fact of who the original creator was.

This may be taking the thread off topic and I am willing to take the heat.

Whadda ya' talkin' about? You live in the heat.

I am assuming from the above that points are deducted for things that are not correct. So one starts with 100 points untill the car is inspected and the points are subtracted from 100. Versus starting from zero and adding for things that are correct????

Exactly.

[Barry Wolk]

Walter,

The car was inspected by many H & E employees. They identified things like "Charlie's mounting system" and "Bill's brackets" and other identifyable systems and structures.

If you wish I will post Art Sears letter and Willard Hess' son's further explanation for you. I suppose I am relying on 50 year old memories but I'd certainly remember building a Mark II convertible. Wouldn't you?

Actually there were two of them built by H & E. I'd love to find the other one. If it is serial number 1120 it would be the other car specified in the Continental document showing how my car ended up in Ford Marketing's Chicago Districts hands.

[W. Higgins]

They identified things like "Charlie's mounting system" and "Bill's brackets" and other identifyable systems and structures.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I'd remember building a Mark II convertible, too. It is just a matter of how you tell which one. Sure, I'd like to see the letter(s). If it has been posted in the past, I guess I missed it.

How old is Mr. Sears? From speaking with him I gathered he would have to be about 90. Interesting guy. I'd love to have some piece of documentation I could attribute to my car, but he said there were no recoreds. He explained some of the weird deviations in my car but couldn't tell me if it was the first one, or not.

[Barry Wolk]

Action,

Your assumption about judging is correct. I believe the LCOC judging gives five points for each category (interior, tires, etc.). Points or portion of points are deducted for deficiencies. I was dinged .5 point for having a black coil wire and a full point for radial tires. My score was 98.5 and I came in third place. The very next show was a Concours, Eyes on Design, where I won a top award. "Automotive Design of Exceptional Merit". I liked that much better than third place.

Actually, you are absolutely right about my motives for buying the Mark II convertible. It spoke to me as a work of art. Rolling sculpture. I've never bought a work of art with the thought of resale. In fact, I've never sold a work of art and I haven't sold a car in 20 years.

The art collection is being left to a museum and the Mark II has been offered to another.

[Barry Wolk]

Art's not as old as you might think. I think he said he was 76 back in '04 when I showed the car at Ault Park. He's sharp as a tack. We've talked about the metal boot and he said he told me that he didn't recognize it from the first pictures I sent him. When he saw it in person he disavowed any knowledge of it's maker. It's really rigged, on close inspection of the workings, but somebody did some gorgeous lead work to make the outside a knockout. The guy I bought the car from fabricated the fiberglass side covers to complete the look. The car used to have flaps covering the base of the top bow.

I'll look for the scans of those documents you asked to see.

[Barry Wolk]

Here you go Walter.

The letter from Art Sears is followed by further explanation by Bill Hess Jr.

That is followed by the letter from Ford's records noting the serial number of my car and explaining how it came into the posession of Ford's Marketing Division.

That is followed by Paul Wagner's letter. Paul was the first public owner of the Derham Mark II convertible. He told me that he knew of my car when it was new. His job at Ford was running the pool cars and disposal of custom and test vehicles. He's quite ill but very interesting to talk to.

[Barry Wolk]

[I'd love to have some piece of documentation I could attribute to my car, but he said there were no records.

Walter,

Since your car was built as a factory-offered limousine package you might find the records at the Benson Ford Research Library at The Henry Ford. They have Ford's records complete through 1956. It gets a little more sparse after that.

I believe they have the Lincoln records as well as the Continental records on file.

They will do the research for you but it takes a lot of time. I scanned the records myself and was able to pick out the only document in the files that listed specific Mark II serial numbers, and one of them turned out to be mine. Imagine my pleasure and my suprise. The proverbial needle in a haystack.

[W. Higgins]

You're right, Mr. Sears is not as old as I thought. I thought he had told me he was shop manager at the time my car was built, so I figured him to be a little older at that time and was going by some other stuff he had told me.

With the letters, I can see how the certified custom committee would take issue with them. The only real useful one is from Paul Wagoner. Art's letter doesn't sound like much except to say, "we all discussed a car we haven't seen and determined we made it." It would be most helpful if he would provide copies of those project folders. There was a huge collection of documentation from H&E on Ebay about four years ago. The starting price was high, something like 5k or 10k. I wrote asking if the collection included any of the stuff that would have been of interest to me and the woman selling it was doing so for someone else. She knew nothing about cars and couldn't tell me. The owner of the documentation had brain cancer and but a short time to live. She told me if the auction ended without a sale that she would contact me and we would work on pulling the information I wanted for a private sale. Well, she never got back to me and subsequent attempts to contact her got me no replies. She wouldn't tell me who the man was, just a former H&E employee. I'm sure that great big box of stuff is sitting stuffed away in someone's closet.

Bill Jr's. letter is nice, too, but he really doesn't offer anything definitive, either. It is mostly biographies on himself, Art, and the company.

So, I can see the certified custom committee's problem. You need those project folders he promised.

Going to the Benson Ford Library is on my list of things to do. When I first visited the Edison Institute I did not yet own the limo. If they will do research for me I don't mind waiting. I'd still like to go in person, but until then I have nothing but time. I'll look into contacting them soon to see how they can help.

[zman1964]

I may be taking this in a different direction but I am amazed by the comments made about the LCOC judging. I was a very active member of the club in the 1980s and had the first Ford Motor company 1961-69 award winner( for a 99 point 64 sedan). At that time there was much talk about creating a category for cutom cars at the events. I even built a 1969 Mark III convertible and showed it as a pre-primary car and took 2nd place. But it won the peoples choice award just about every time out. I pushed hard for a category that would recognize these type of cars but it fell on deaf ears. Marrige, kids and other priorities took me away from the hobby for a while but now coming back I am dissapointed that the same old issues are still simmering.

I think this Mark II desreves special recognition for what it is and I think the club needs to look at what it wants to become in the future, as a number of fine automobiles and there owners are not being served by this fine organization.

Just an opinion

[Mad Scientist]

My car show rant:
How can you judge a car show? Is a modern “star Wars” styled car or a radical custom “prettier” then an antique or is it something in between? Is a total 100% restoration the way to go? But if so how is that determined? Is not “beauty in the eye of the beholder”?

If judging is done by the whim or personal preference of the judge is that fair? If judging is done on a point system based on originality is that fair to the owner of a customized car? Should a person who restored an old car but yet wants to have a safe dependable vehicle, have points taken off because he has a modern battery, or the fan belt, hoses, tires, shocks, etc., are not made by the exact same manufactures as when it was new? At what point does restoration of an old car to a just like new condition end, and when does stupidity take over?

Some time back I saw a magazine article about a guy who was boasting about how many months he had spent rummaging junkyards taking apart engines. Is seems he was looking for head bolts that had a slightly different design on the head because they were the ones used during the month that his engine was built. Of course once he put the valve covers on no one would ever get to see them.

When I go to an auto show I enjoy looking at the customs while I might not like each and everyone and can appreciate the creativity that has gone into them. But how do you quantitatively measure that?

For me having someone come over and enjoy looking at my car is what makes it all worthwhile. Well OK maybe not the slobbering little kid with the drippy ice cream cone and sticky hands. But if there is a small group and they are taking pictures I have no problem asking if they like to sit in the car. This usually shocks the hell out of them that someone would actually let they sit in one the “show” cars and take pictures, and it will probably be the highlight of their day. For me that is more fun then if I take home a trophy.

Along that same line a couple members of the club I belong to have been putting on a no-trophy show. It been held at the Great Lakes Veterans Hospital it is closed to the general public and it is only for the residents of the hospital. Seeing as how the residents there don’t get out all that much the feedback we get from the hospital has been that the show is major event for them and is talked about for months.

I don’t need a trophy for that one. End rant.

[Barry Wolk]

I think this Mark II desreves special recognition for what it is and I think the club needs to look at what it wants to become in the future, as a number of fine automobiles and there owners are not being served by this fine organization.

Just an opinion

I must have missed your post back in 2006. Thank you for the compliment.

[LincRgr8t]

hmm...interesting topic. good article and i like the link you put up.

[larrys 62 53A]

There's a gray Mark II convertible at the Toronto Auto Show and according to the Toronto Star, it's one of nine made. Say what?

[Bob Hubbard]

There's a gray Mark II convertible at the Toronto Auto Show and according to the Toronto Star, it's one of nine made. Say what?

Nine made by who?
And still we have not solved the mystery of the Tedeschi MARK II convertible.
Bob.