Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue) (R)

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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by papawayne »

Your audience, Tony, your audience...we're all still here. We want that car to run. Wayne
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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by TonyC »

Thank you, Wayne, very much :smt006 . I'm still looking for the motivation I had, and just one cheer for me helps. As of today I still haven't started on that part of the operation; I had some things to take care of that I kept forgetting over the past couple days, so I had some hiking to do. But, I have done a couple of other things to the car that I hope might help. Sunday I realized that the positive cable from the relay to the starter was too long, so I trimmed it; some years ago I bought a 4-foot, 2-gauge cable, and just a couple days ago I realized I needed only 2 feet. O'Reilly did not have any 2-gauge cables, but they did have new eyelet ends for 2-gauge, so I got those, cut the cable to half the length (the half on the starter end, where the insulation got cooked up and brittle after so many years of being too close to the exhaust pipe), crimped the new eyelet on, and reattached it to the starter. I also noticed that the other eyelet ends were hanging a bit loose on the cables from the insulation shrinking and exposing the wiring, so I crimped them tighter, wrapped them, and reattached; I don't know how much difference that will make to the starter's performance, but it can't hurt, right? Might help, especially since O'Reilly's last check showed no problems with the starter itself. Yesterday I did a fix to the carburetor choke plate (elaborated on in another thread); hopefully, with the plate now secured by two screws that may help. Tomorrow the forecast is calling for a threat of rain, but that could change. If it does, I'll probably start measuring the rods and installing; I have to take out all the old rods and the shims I put on the rocker shafts, then start the adjustments to get every valve to .10" clearance with the respective lifters compressed. Then, when I know I've done all that correctly (I'm not rushing anything, I want to be certain I get those clearances exactly right), pray to God, cross my fingers, and see what happens.

To be continued...

Well, I got started. I took out all the shims I put on the rocker shafts and all the original pushrods. I discovered that I had bent another pushrod, the #6 intake! How, I don't know, but that makes this new set all the more critical. I intend on doing a lot of redundant inspections to make sure they are properly seated in the lifters and rocker arms, because I just cannot afford to bend a new rod out of carelessness. So, I started with the valves the shop manual lists with the crank set at #1-compression TDC. I took several sizes of my feeler gauge out and combined them to get my goal .10" measurement for valve clearances. Since every valve has a different measurement now, that means dialing up every pushrod to make sure the clearance between rocker and valve stem to take up that difference and achieve a constant .10" clearance for all of them. I have 8 rods in place now, but I'm not yet done adjusting them; without a lifter compressor tool, I can't be 100% sure I have the right clearance with just finger pressure (but I have such a tool coming in soon, so hopefully that will do it). I took a few shots today, which I'm attaching here to share with my "followers." They show how short and how long the new rods are compared to the factory-originals, and how they seat in the engine to show that the adjustment mechanism doesn't cause any interference concerns.

---Tony
Attachments
OE Pushrod and New Pushrod at Minimum Adjustment
OE Pushrod and New Pushrod at Minimum Adjustment
OE Pushrod and New Pushrod at Maximum Adjustment
OE Pushrod and New Pushrod at Maximum Adjustment
New Pushrods in Place, #1 Cylinder
New Pushrods in Place, #1 Cylinder
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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by TonyC »

Bumping to share results from my last technical card played. I know I shared on this thread the results of a compression test I did in March. Today, despite my apprehension, I performed a second one, to see how much difference there might be. In short, the differences in all the cylinders was huge; all the readings were effectively double the readings I did in March, before I went into the heads. I don't know how much is attributable to the head swap and pushrod replacement, and how much is attributable to the new starter. Possibly altogether they made that difference...but my problem still remains. Last time I tried to fire the engine up, I was able to fire it up and keep it revving high for about a minute, with effort from the pedal, before it choked out again. I've done tweaks to the fuel system and the ignition, and I know they can't be the problem. With the compression figures all double those I did in March, I am pretty sure I can rule out the engine itself as the cause of the problem.

I would say that everything technical that could cause a coma has been covered. Somebody on one of the Facebook groups (and I'm pretty sure some here as well, if I look back far enough) suggested that the problem may be in my gas tank—specifically, the gas itself. If others here also suggested that, I'm sorry for not acknowledging the possibility sooner. It certainly sounds plausible now, considering that the engine, even with all the technical issues building up simultaneously, was able to run perfectly fine to the station, but going from the station it was running terribly rough immediately, steadily getting worse until finally choking out about a mile from home. It would be ironic, however relieving, to know that is the problem that needs solving. I can't have the gas tested, because although I can easily extract a hefty sample through the fuel pump, I don't know where to go in Junction City to have it tested, and chances are that any place is just too ruddy far to walk, especially with a jar of gasoline. The individual in the Facebook group suggested a pint of Seafoam in the tank. With nothing else to go by, I went with that suggestion. I'm not sure how long I want to wait before trying again, since the Seafoam was poured on top of a near-full tank; it may need time to mix. But, anyway, that's how things are right now, and what my latest guess is.

---Tony
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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by Mike »

It certainly could be a gas problem. I'm still going thru that right now with one of my vehicles. Like someone else suggested you can take a piece of hose and run it off a jerry can to rule out the tank and gas in it. If it still starts and only runs ok for a minute or so it could be a carb problem. That's where I'm at with mine (not Lincoln).
It started and ran great until the choke started opening, then you could only get it started by pouring gas down the carb and it died pretty quickly after that gas was used up.
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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by action »

Tony,

It is my opinion that any engine will run if there is some compression, some fuel and a spark at least close to the correct time to light off the compressed air/fuel mixture. It may not run well but yet it should run and not stall out with no restart.

Compression - You state it starts (well at least one time in a row it started) and the engine runs however it has to be at high RPM requiring "pedal effort". And you state the last time you started it without specifics might have been recently. And I am going to assume based on how it ran that there is enough compression. Because the engine did run. Compression is almost a go - no go thing. If there isn't an adjustment for compression. So I am calling this 1 of 3 needed items to run, good to go. Or at least good enough for now. BTW this includes the valves opening and closing in a correct order with the piston coming up on the compression stroke.

Spark - Again I am going to make an assumption that if you got the engine to run for a minute, at least the ignition system was putting out enough to operate for that minute. Spark is an adjustable thing. And if the engine runs, the spark or base ignition timing, may be off however there was enough at close to the correct time to get the engine to run for a minute. So I am calling this 2 of 3 needed items to run, good to go. Again good enough for now.

Fuel - Fuel has to be delivered to the engine hopefully in a vapor form in a certain amount (Like Goldilocks not too much and not too little) with air to be ignited and cause the engine to run. However there are a lot of adjustments for fuel and the needs of a cold engine change greatly after the initial start up. It needs a very rich fuel mixture to start and then gradually a leaner mixture. Your statement of "with effort from the pedal" then "choked out again" has me suspecting there is fuel problem and that is where your efforts need to be focused. You operate the pedal to keep the RPM up which may be a non-fuel issue, but at some point the system runs out of fuel or has too much. This is a guess on my part. If the fuel is bad, it is not because it is old. You have only been walking for less than 6 months. Fuel doesn't go bad in that short period of time. It may pick up water or some other foreign thing. But that is outside of the definition of the 3 needed things. Surely removing and inspecting or replacing the fuel filter has been done. But you might do that again. Then with the fuel left in the removed filter shake out that out from the inlet side of the filter to a paper towel. Is it clean?

And you make these statements which just boggles my mind ....
"I've done tweaks to the fuel system and the ignition, and I know they can't be the problem." How do you know this?
"I would say that everything technical that could cause a coma has been covered." If everything is covered then the engine runs. Right?
But it is not running! Which means everything isn't covered?

Obviously you have missed something because the engine is not running. I am assuming that a non-running engine is in a coma. However a coma is not exactly a term that has automotive applications. So if there is more to it or I am missing what you mean by a coma please clarify. Just for kicks .... The definition of coma is any condition where the "patient" is unconscious with their eyes closed and unable to be aroused by even vigorous or painful stimulation.


So here are my questions for added clarification -
When was the last time the engine ran at all? Even for a minute!
During that time did it feel like it was smooth enough to say all 8 spark plugs were firing? Or was it rough running?
During that one time the engine was running for about a minute with effort from the pedal, describe that pedal effort?
Were you pumping the pedal? Or was there some other pedal action?
Do you have a tach? Install and post engine RPMs for the next start up
Cold engine start up after stepping on the accelerator pedal, does the choke set up? With the upper choke valve closing within in 1/8"?
Any major vacuum leaks?

You can play around with other systems of the engine, but the condition you are describing sounds like air/fuel mixture issues.

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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by TonyC »

action wrote: Fuel - Fuel has to be delivered to the engine hopefully in a vapor form in a certain amount (Like Goldilocks not too much and not too little) with air to be ignited and cause the engine to run. However there are a lot of adjustments for fuel and the needs of a cold engine change greatly after the initial start up. It needs a very rich fuel mixture to start and then gradually a leaner mixture. Your statement of "with effort from the pedal" then "choked out again" has me suspecting there is fuel problem and that is where your efforts need to be focused. You operate the pedal to keep the RPM up which may be a non-fuel issue, but at some point the system runs out of fuel or has too much. This is a guess on my part. If the fuel is bad, it is not because it is old. You have only been walking for less than 6 months. Fuel doesn't go bad in that short period of time. It may pick up water or some other foreign thing. But that is outside of the definition of the 3 needed things. Surely removing and inspecting or replacing the fuel filter has been done. But you might do that again. Then with the fuel left in the removed filter shake out that out from the inlet side of the filter to a paper towel. Is it clean?
Action
The fuel filter was one of the things I outright replaced early on (and don't call me "Shirley" :D ). From the old one, I saw dirty stuff come out of the filter, so I immediately got a new one. It had been at least three, maybe four, years since I had last replaced that filter. I think it possible that I may need to do that again, if what I'm guessing is right. I am not saying the gas went bad with age, Action. I'm saying that I suspect it to have been bad (as in "CONTAMINATED") from the pump. If gasoline is contaminated from the onset, that throws a skew in the whole equation. From the sample I extracted earlier this week, it looked clean; all it had was a yellowish tint to it, like diluted apple juice, but so sign of "bits" in it. However, "bits" are not the only means of contaminating gasoline. And, aside from a chain-reaction of major component failures (which BTW were piling up, yet the engine ran smoothly to the gas station), the only logical thing that can make an engine run terribly immediately, and choke it out within ten minutes, after a fill-up has to be contaminated gasoline.
action wrote:And you make these statements which just boggles my mind ....
"I've done tweaks to the fuel system and the ignition, and I know they can't be the problem." How do you know this?Action
Because I have gone over everything in both shop manuals multiple times, to the point that I found myself repeating actions. Everything I have done SHOULD have resulted in a running engine. But it hasn't.
action wrote: "I would say that everything technical that could cause a coma has been covered." If everything is covered then the engine runs. Right?
But it is not running! Which means everything isn't covered?
Action
You've just taken my statement out of context by deleting a critical word. I said, "everything technical," which means every possible issue attributable to an engine or engine-related system. Every system diagnosis in the shop manual has been performed. What has not been performed is a test of the gasoline itself in the tank.
action wrote: Obviously you have missed something because the engine is not running. I am assuming that a non-running engine is in a coma. However a coma is not exactly a term that has automotive applications. So if there is more to it or I am missing what you mean by a coma please clarify. Just for kicks .... The definition of coma is any condition where the "patient" is unconscious with their eyes closed and unable to be aroused by even vigorous or painful stimulation.
Action
I suppose I should have clarified from the onset that I was speaking metaphorically. Sorry about that. I suppose that, based on the definition (and again referring to it metaphorically), the engine is no longer comatose, but it's still not fully recovered. Yeah, I'm missing something, but it's not in the manual.

action wrote:So here are my questions for added clarification -
When was the last time the engine ran at all? Even for a minute!
Action
Two days ago.

action wrote:During that time did it feel like it was smooth enough to say all 8 spark plugs were firing? Or was it rough running?
Action
It was not smooth at all, but how can one tell whether a spark plug is faulty or whether it is having difficulty firing contaminated gas? It seemed to try and smooth out at high rev, only to get rough again if I tried letting the throttle off. I was able to catch a couple of stalls and rev it up again, I'd say three times, but it would lose power and go back to stall.

action wrote:During that one time the engine was running for about a minute with effort from the pedal, describe that pedal effort?
Were you pumping the pedal? Or was there some other pedal action?
Action
Yes, I was pumping it. I pumped it about three times before turning the key. When the engine fired, I pumped again to get the revs up. When the engine was reaching stall, I pumped it fast two or three times, and the engine would rev back up, hold for several seconds, then start falling off again; repeated that procedure at least three times last time.
action wrote:Do you have a tach? Install and post engine RPMs for the next start up
Cold engine start up after stepping on the accelerator pedal, does the choke set up? With the upper choke valve closing within in 1/8"?
Action
Yes, I have a tach. I'm about to go and try it again, so I'll note the RPMs and post them here, as an edit to this message. The choke does set up within 1/8" when cold, and it starts to open when the engine is running long enough.

EDIT: The tach I have has a scale up to 2000rpm. When I fired up the engine, I had the pedal down about halfway, occasionally trying to let up to about a third of the way until it started to stall. But at a steady halfway, I saw the needle swing from 1400 to off the scale, even when I could clearly hear the engine slowing down. This time I was able to keep it revving for about three minutes or so. In the first minute there was a large plume of bluish smoke, but it cleared up after the second minute.
action wrote:Any major vacuum leaks?
Action
None. Everything that is operated by vacuum is sealed.
action wrote:You can play around with other systems of the engine, but the condition you are describing sounds like air/fuel mixture issues.
Action
My point is, I'm sick of playing. I have gone over everything multiple times. Even though there may be some minuscule tuning tweaks I may have missed, they cannot be enough to cause this problem. "How do you know," you may ask? Because I'm an automotive genius. :geek: As somebody once said, when you eliminate the impossible, then whatever is left, however improbable, has to be the truth. The only thing left is to suspect the gasoline. Although I have never had any such issues with Sapp Brothers' gas before, there is always room for a first time...and if they did in fact sell me contaminated gasoline, either water- or diesel-contaminated as somebody suggested, they will hear it from me. When I can get there.

---Tony
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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by action »

TonyC wrote: My point is, I'm sick of playing. I have gone over everything multiple times. Even though there may be some minuscule tuning tweaks I may have missed, they cannot be enough to cause this problem. "How do you know," you may ask? Because I'm an automotive genius. :geek: As somebody once said, when you eliminate the impossible, then whatever is left, however improbable, has to be the truth. The only thing left is to suspect the gasoline. Although I have never had any such issues with Sapp Brothers' gas before, there is always room for a first time...and if they did in fact sell me contaminated gasoline, either water- or diesel-contaminated as somebody suggested, they will hear it from me. When I can get there.

---Tony
OK ... you may be a genius but this thread is almost 3 months old and is the second or third thread. The engine ain't running .....

It might be prudent to relook at some things -
Is #1 on or very close to TDC with the pointer aligned?
Are all of the spark plug cables in the correct firing order?
You had issues with the valves closing. With high compression they are closing. Do the valve open far enough to take in a full charge?
What is the fuel pressure when cranking?
When the engine is started, introduce more fuel down the carb. If it runs better you are too lean. If it stalls you are to rich

Action
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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by TonyC »

OK ... you may be a genius but this thread is almost 3 months old and is the second or third thread. The engine ain't running .....

Yes, and nobody is more frustrated nor irritated by this than me! Rest assured, I have no love for asking assistance; I can offer it at the drop of a hat when I can, but I cannot tolerate asking for it. Everything I have done in these past three months is supposed to have resulted in a running engine, and it hasn't. This is a paradox for me...unless I'm missing the immediate reason for all this. Hence, my suspicion of the condition of this tank of gas.

With the other things to look at, I'll answer them inside the quote in bold.
It might be prudent to relook at some things -
Is #1 on or very close to TDC with the pointer aligned? Yes. When I replaced the timing components, I took redundant steps to make sure they were properly aligned, and with the damper in place the pointer is right on 0º.
Are all of the spark plug cables in the correct firing order? Yes. I have very meticulously confirmed that every cable is where it needs to be.
You had issues with the valves closing. With high compression they are closing. Do the valve open far enough to take in a full charge? They are closing now because I finally got those new pushrods and dialed in each and every one to guarantee that the clearance the shop manuals call for is dead-on-balls and consistent with every valve, despite the differences in each one. And last time I had the valve covers off, about a week or so ago, I could see that the valves that were open were very open. I have no doubt that the new lifters and pushrods are doing their jobs.
What is the fuel pressure when cranking? I don't have a number to give, but the pressure was noticeably strong when I did the visual exam of the gas, rushing out of the inlet hose with every stroke (I let it pump 7 times before stopping, to get enough gas in the jar to examine it).
When the engine is started, introduce more fuel down the carb. If it runs better you are too lean. If it stalls you are to rich Right now I'm pondering an alternative to that suggestion. I have a 1-gallon fuel can. I am thinking of asking somebody to drive me to the convenience store in Grandview, a mile from where I live, and getting a fresh gallon of gas (this store is not the same one I last got gas from); from there, disconnect the inlet hose at the fender, sink it into the can, crank the engine, and see what happens. I know it will still run rough initially, but if it smooths out, then I will have found the cause of my problem and can finally close out this ridiculously-long thread. If it doesn't make any change, well...
I did seem to notice something with this last crank attempt. The engine ran for about five or six minutes this last time (about an hour ago). It was still extremely rough initially, but when the blue smoke stopped billowing I held the pedal a bit lighter, lowering the revs, and it felt like it was trying to smooth out. By that time the Seafoam treatment had to have been going in; maybe that is a sign. It has been a very long time since I had a problem with bad gas, and even the last time I remember it had not confounded me this much. The symptoms I remember were similar but not to this degree...of course, last time that happened, I had a lot of people near me to rely on to isolate and remedy the problem. Not this time. It may be crazy, I'll admit, but I'm not presumptively ruling out that possibility yet; confirmation is needed, and I think that's the avenue to follow at this point, at least to confirm whether my fuel supply can also be ruled out.

---Tony
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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by action »

TonyC wrote:
Everything I have done in these past three months is supposed to have resulted in a running engine, and it hasn't. This is a paradox for me...unless I'm missing the immediate reason for all this. Hence, my suspicion of the condition of this tank of gas.

---Tony
The next step after "everything" has been done is to seek professional help.

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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by LithiumCobalt »

Tony has this engine ever been rebuilt save for reconditioning the heads, carb, etc? With 300k+ miles it’s possible the bloody thing is just worn out. That wouldn’t explain why all of a sudden it ran poorly, though, I don’t think. The compression readings are telling. I had an issue when I first tried to start up my ‘vert several years ago. Turns out, I had the distributor out 180 degrees. Very easy to do. Backfiring through carb, etc.
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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by TonyC »

The next step after "everything" has been done is to seek professional help.
For whom, me or the car...? :lol: I'm not sure, I could look into my retirement benefits, see if I could get a good rate for both of us. :smt005

Seriously, though, yes, my next step will be to have the car carried again to the auto shop on Fort Riley, see what the staff can figure out. It was going there last time that helped steer me in the direction to solve the compression problem I caused when I swapped out the heads. Actually, even if my suspicion is in fact confirmed (and I'm still stressing "if" at this point), I'll still need their help to drop the tank and drain it out.

Nick, the only thing I have not done to this engine was pull out the pistons. Granted, when I did the clean-out of the cylinders, I could tell those pistons were starting to show their age, but none of them looked so bad as to convince me to stop what I was doing and commit to doing them as well. I had been thinking about it and even shopped around a day or so ago for pistons; but today's compression test and subsequent crank attempt tell me that, although a rebuild is needed, it's not immediately needed. I do wish to get that done, but not until I have a second car on hand—whether that second car be a local-buy ricketer, my mother's Mustang, or my entitlement which the world owes me, I don't care at this point. I just need motorized wheels.

I know exactly what you mean, especially with your experience with a backwards distributor. In fact, a couple years ago, there was a guy on Fort Riley who had a '72 Coupé he had recently bought, and he was having trouble getting it to run, so I offered my help. For several weeks we worked on it. When he finally volunteered some info about removing the distributor, I asked him if he had taken note of its alignment when he yanked it. Well, he didn't; he yanked it and then turned the engine several times to do other work to it. He had exactly the symptoms you mentioned: Backfire (with emphasis on "fire") through the carburetor. On a hunch, I told him to yank the distributor again, turn the shaft 180º, sink it back in, then try cranking. The expression on his face when the engine fired and ran was priceless. Now, in my case, I know for a fact that I have my distributor inserted correctly, so that is not the problem. Not a single technical check I've done has shown to be the problem, even though everything I came across showed a need for attention. Everything that has needed fixing has been fixed, at least to the point that this engine should be running...except for the fuel supply.

---Tony
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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by frasern »

Farmers often have the fuel in their tanks tested before harvest, so any agricultural dealer or bulk fuel supplier should be able to do that.
When you get a jerry can of fresh gas, try putting that, and your old stuff side by side and do a smell test. I find it hard to tell any more which is gas, and which is diesel, unless they are side by side. Maybe my smell is going, but the new, "ultra low sulphur diesel" we have here, just doesn't have the smell it used to.
Edit; if you still have the receipt for that fill up, it may show the grade of fuel you got.
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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by TonyC »

Well, nix that idea; I used half a gallon of fresh gas from another station today, and no difference. So it isn't the fuel supply.

At this point I think the problem is far, far deeper and far, far worse than I cared to admit. I'm taking Action's last advice and getting professional help. So for all who were victims of my snide banter on this thread, I'm sorry; I admit now that it was more an attempt to convince myself that I could get this under control. This is the last comment of mine on this thread, as I think it's time to bury it (along with the engine, likely). Veterans, you are free to dismiss me as an authority on engines. Newbies, don't take any advice given by me here, should you have similar problems to mine; it won't help you (although advice from the others could help).

---Tony
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet, just because there is a picture with a quote next to it." (Abraham Lincoln, 1866)
"Question Authority!"

1966 Continental Sedan, affectionately known as "Frankenstein" until body restoration is done (to be renamed "General Sherman" on that event)
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RMAENV
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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by RMAENV »

Tony, Just a wild stab here... are you sure it isn't in the fuel supply?, Either the fuel pump got weak or possible the arm is either worn or damaged? Kind of a thing where the problem is hidden in plain sight?
Rob
1966 Lincoln Convertible (White/Black)
1957 Chevy Bel Air Resto-Mod (Anthricite/Black)
2009 Challenger SRT 6.1 Hemi (Hemi Orange Pearl/Black)
2012 Expedition EL (White Titanium Tricoat/Charcoal)
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TonyC
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Re: Engine Drama Continued (From Sluggish Starting Issue)

Post by TonyC »

It would be nice, Rob, if it were that simple. But a weak or worn fuel pump would not cause the engine to billow out clouds of blue smoke through the oil filler cap, the pipes, and every seam that smoke can find to escape, thick enough to choke the whole of Los Angeles. That is what it's doing now.

I'm afraid the worst predictions may be right after all. It's time to undergo a total rebuild...or scrap, depending on the block's condition.

---Tony
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet, just because there is a picture with a quote next to it." (Abraham Lincoln, 1866)
"Question Authority!"

1966 Continental Sedan, affectionately known as "Frankenstein" until body restoration is done (to be renamed "General Sherman" on that event)
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