Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

Post by Solid »

autostick wrote:I did both left and right manifolds by jacking up the engine. It was also an excuse to buy more tools to get to those bolts. Yes indeed it was a difficult job, did it before I got my lift. I think I did an okay job as ten years later there are no signs of leaks, so I now attached a stainless steel dual exhaust. Finally the car drives and sounds like it should.
DSC04161.JPG
It is definitely easier to raise the motor than to remove the heads. Most of the hardware is easy to reach except for the bottom fastener towards the firewall end of the manifold. It is hard to get a real wrench on that one. Use something like Deep Creep before you go to bed and then take your time the next day removing the fasteners after you've raised the engine. You'll most likely find, as I did, that it is impossible to get a torque wrench onto that same bottom firewall-end fastener when you are reinstalling the manifolds. I tightened it so that it had about the same amount of thread visible as the ones that had been done with a torque wrench and it worked out fine. I might have needed a crow's foot to deal with limited fastener access. Get new studs and nuts before you start. Also I'd strongly consider chasing the threads with a tap while the manifolds are out, and to use copper high temp anti-sieze on the threads.

One thing to keep in mind when raising the engine is that if the transmission mounts are worn or shot, the entire drivetrain will shift back a little bit, and then the studs on the motor mounts won't align into the crossmember when you lower the engine back down. You can use a second jack to apply pressure under the transmission mount to compensate, but I'd check to see if that rubber is shot and if needed, replace it before raising the engine. If your motor mounts are shot, now is definitely the time.

If you're feeling passionate, take the manifolds to a powder coating place and get a ceramic coating on them. It lasts way longer than paint and does not have to be gaudy. I went with a dark grey that held up well and looks pretty natural.

I did not find it terribly difficult to install the Remflex gaskets with the engine in the car. If the studs are threaded into the block, you just need to line up all the holes so that it is parallel to the block and slide it into place. It is really not that hard to take a minute to make sure you're not trying to put it on at an angle to avoid stressing the gasket too much. It does not feel brittle when handling it, its more like the way a sponge can feel stiff after its been used a few times and dried. It feels like if you apply too much stress, it'll form cracks, but it's not some insanely delicate thing. Bending it would probably destroy it though.

I found that the graphite gasket would just hang in place on the studs. Then I held the manifold partly on the studs and lightly threaded a brass nut at each corner. After that it's just a question of pushing the manifold up slowly so that the gasket stays square, and then hand tightening the two brass nuts a little bit more. Then you go back and do all the rest of the nuts and torque everything to spec. Obviously use high temp anti-size everywhere. Also the Remflex gasket is so thick and can absorb so much surface variance that eyeballing the threads to torque the hardware that a torque wrench can't be used on worked out fine for me.
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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

Post by autostick »

Solid wrote:It is definitely easier to raise the motor than to remove the heads. Most of the hardware is easy to reach except for the bottom fastener towards the firewall end of the manifold. It is hard to get a real wrench on that one. Use something like Deep Creep before you go to bed and then take your time the next day removing the fasteners after you've raised the engine. You'll most likely find, as I did, that it is impossible to get a torque wrench onto that same bottom firewall-end fastener when you are reinstalling the manifolds. I tightened it so that it had about the same amount of thread visible as the ones that had been done with a torque wrench and it worked out fine. I might have needed a crow's foot to deal with limited fastener access. Get new studs and nuts before you start. Also I'd strongly consider chasing the threads with a tap while the manifolds are out, and to use copper high temp anti-sieze on the threads.

One thing to keep in mind when raising the engine is that if the transmission mounts are worn or shot, the entire drivetrain will shift back a little bit, and then the studs on the motor mounts won't align into the crossmember when you lower the engine back down. You can use a second jack to apply pressure under the transmission mount to compensate, but I'd check to see if that rubber is shot and if needed, replace it before raising the engine. If your motor mounts are shot, now is definitely the time.

If you're feeling passionate, take the manifolds to a powder coating place and get a ceramic coating on them. It lasts way longer than paint and does not have to be gaudy. I went with a dark grey that held up well and looks pretty natural.

I did not find it terribly difficult to install the Remflex gaskets with the engine in the car. If the studs are threaded into the block, you just need to line up all the holes so that it is parallel to the block and slide it into place. It is really not that hard to take a minute to make sure you're not trying to put it on at an angle to avoid stressing the gasket too much. It does not feel brittle when handling it, its more like the way a sponge can feel stiff after its been used a few times and dried. It feels like if you apply too much stress, it'll form cracks, but it's not some insanely delicate thing. Bending it would probably destroy it though.

I found that the graphite gasket would just hang in place on the studs. Then I held the manifold partly on the studs and lightly threaded a brass nut at each corner. After that it's just a question of pushing the manifold up slowly so that the gasket stays square, and then hand tightening the two brass nuts a little bit more. Then you go back and do all the rest of the nuts and torque everything to spec. Obviously use high temp anti-size everywhere. Also the Remflex gasket is so thick and can absorb so much surface variance that eyeballing the threads to torque the hardware that a torque wrench can't be used on worked out fine for me.
Please excuse the obvious pun, but some real solid advice. All of these pointers will help anyone doing these manifolds. Our thanks to Solid for this comprehensive post. As for new nuts, I used new brass nuts and copper anti-sieze in case anyone ever does this again. Yes indeed forget about the torque wrench, but you develop a pretty good feel for the proper amount of force from the nuts you can wrench with a torque device.

One thing I would suggest is taking the manifold to a shop to have the surface milled perfectly flat. One side they did the work, the other side the shop said it already was perfectly straight. It would be quite disappointing to discover a warped manifold after starting the car at job's end.
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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

Post by Macho »

autostick wrote:
Solid wrote:One thing I would suggest is taking the manifold to a shop to have the surface milled perfectly flat. One side they did the work, the other side the shop said it already was perfectly straight. It would be quite disappointing to discover a warped manifold after starting the car at job's end.
I would add that manifolds can be checked at home with a quality metal ruler beforehand to see if they are warped.
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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

Post by Dave Rose »

Going through this whole aggravating process with my 1959 Lincoln. Hopefully my experience can help others avoid mistakes I've made.

First big mistake was using the metal/fiber laminate exhaust manifold gaskets that were included with the engine rebuild gasket kit a couple years ago. After picking up my engine from the rebuilder, I used those gaskets and bolted on two new exhaust manifolds sourced from Mark II Enterprises. Shortly thereafter, while getting some exhaust work done, the muffler shop owner advised "You might want to re-torque those exhaust manifolds" as if it were a matter of routine. The first BIG RED FLAG! It was difficult, but I did re-torque them. After putting 500+ miles on the car, I decided to install fuel injection. That worked out fine initially but the performance of the engine became increasingly poor and cold starts very difficult. In trying to diagnose problems, I pressured my exhaust system with a Shop Vac and sprayed soapy water on the exhaust manifold-head junction, which revealed numerous small leaks along gaskets on both sides. With fuel injection on the engine, the exhaust leak was causing my O2 sensor to detect a "lean" condition, which in turn prompted the fuel injection to drastically increase fuel delivery. Thus the hard starting and poor performance caused by running too rich.

Next step was doing online research. REMFLEX gaskets came highly recommended by many, the thick graphite composition ideal for headers on hot rods or sealing slight irregularities on exhaust manifolds of vintage cars. So I purchased a pair of Remflex gaskets, went through the tedious chore of removing the exhaust manifolds with the engine in the car and installing the Remflex gaskets. Initially, it looked like a good fix, until a chunk of the Remflex gasket blew out on the LH manifold 200 miles later. Now the car sounds like a Stanley Steamer.

At this point, and based on advice from Ryan McGuire (fellow Rocky Mtn. Region LCOC member), I plan to pull the manifolds off and carefully dress them flat with a large file, checking for perfect flatness. At the same time, I'll check the mating surface on the heads with a straight edge, which will likely be OK as the heads were machined during the recent rebuild. Then reinstall the manifolds with NO gasket.

So, wish me luck!
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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

Post by action »

Dave Rose wrote:
At this point, and based on advice from Ryan McGuire (fellow Rocky Mtn. Region LCOC member), I plan to pull the manifolds off and carefully dress them flat with a large file, checking for perfect flatness. At the same time, I'll check the mating surface on the heads with a straight edge, which will likely be OK as the heads were machined during the recent rebuild. Then reinstall the manifolds with NO gasket.

So, wish me luck!
Wishing you good luck.

I believe the factory installed exhaust manifolds with no gasket. Not positive in MEL engines. FE blocks, 385 blocks and small blocks were assembled that way.

An exhaust manifold gasket sounds like a good idea. In your case it didn't work out so well.

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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

Post by LithiumCobalt »

The MELs, or at least the 462, has a combination stamped steel heat shield/gasket from the factory. I got the last pair that Bakers had in stock. I’ve seen too many blowouts from the shitty aftermarket composite gaskets, including what was left of the set that I replaced on my ‘67 sedan. Problem is, you can’t find the original sets anymore.
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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

Post by Dave Rose »

Yes, I searched high and low for the original thin steel gaskets/heat shields and they are nowhere to be found. That those crappy steel/fiber laminate gaskets are being sold by vendors is a crime. A later conversation with my local muffler shop confirmed as much, he said the laminate gaskets are complete trash, prone to burn-out and inevitable leaks.
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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

Post by autostick »

delete duplicate
Last edited by autostick on Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

Post by autostick »

On my 430 I used the OEM stainless steel gasket. Fits great, does not leak after eight years.
new gasket and right side manifold
new gasket and right side manifold
:handgestures-thumbsup:
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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

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autostick wrote:On my 430 I used the OEM stainless steel gasket. Fits great, does not leak after eight years.
GASKET.jpg
:handgestures-thumbsup:
Two comments I guess. First, I always saw that threaded hold in the manifold but never had a purpose for it. Is there a reason for the bolt you have installed there, or did you to that to dress an otherwise pointless and unattractive hole?

Second I am really surprised that anyone had one of the Remflex gaskets blow out. After my positive experience on my Lincoln I've used them on several other applications including race cars without any issues, and it is great not to have a gasket rust onto a flange or hardware etc. Might I suggest that your gasket blew out because your EFI had tuned itself rich based on the wideband O2 feedback loop, and then unburned fuel ignited in the exhaust manifold, over pressuring the gasket?
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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

Post by Suicidekid63 »

some members have used copper gaskets for a 390 and trimmed them to fit.

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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

Post by papawayne »

Isn't the threaded hole a lifting point? Wayne
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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

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papawayne wrote:Isn't the threaded hole a lifting point? Wayne
I thought that too.
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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

Post by autostick »

Solid wrote:First, I always saw that threaded hold in the manifold but never had a purpose for it. Is there a reason for the bolt you have installed there, or did you to that to dress an otherwise pointless and unattractive hole?
You guess correctly, there is no purpose for the bolt except to fill an otherwise pointless and unattractive hole. AKA a lifting point.
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Re: Replacing Exhaust Manifolds on 430. Interesting Guy

Post by Macho »

Dave Rose wrote:With fuel injection on the engine, the exhaust leak was causing my O2 sensor to detect a "lean" condition, which in turn prompted the fuel injection to drastically increase fuel delivery. Thus the hard starting and poor performance caused by running too rich.
O2 sensor is not being used when you start the car, it activates after the car has already run for some seconds. So you might have a problem somewhere else, like some temperature sensor or some other engine management settings, which would cause an increase of injected fuel when starting. Also, small leaks in the gasket do not usually cause huge difference in O2 reading.
Dave Rose wrote:Then reinstall the manifolds with NO gasket.
It's likely it will leak, especially if you don't use some special paste between them. I would still try with a gasket now that the manifolds are straight?
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