Are new oils ruining our cars? Must Read!

[Barry Wolk]

Admin update for those who don't want to read 30+ pages of wonderful information and discussion here's the bottom line:
USE A ZINC ADDITIVE IF THE OIL IS API GRADE SM, SN OR HIGHER/NEWER (SO, SP, etc.). SL and previous oils are OK without additive.

OIL IS KILLING OUR CARS
By: Keith Ansell, Foreign Parts
Positively, Inc.

About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed ! camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct break in procedures.

This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It’s today’s “modern” API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.

Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won’t fail in an unrea! sonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rat ed oil on flat tappet engines.

Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars
(Redline). Their response: “We are well aware of the problem and we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our products”. They continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don’t have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the “new, improved and approved” ones that destroy flat tappet engines! “We just build the best lubricants possible”. Sounds stupid, doesn’t it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.

To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to “warn us” of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! “The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates! are causing very early destruction of cams and followers”. They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and gas stations.

This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.

Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was “VERY” aware ! of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tapp ets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the “bad news” we have been finding.

Comp Cams put out “#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts”. They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was “While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from the off the–shelf oil”.

[toddallen]

Well I am very familiar with this problem, this summer was the first time my car was on the road after a total rebuild. It runs fine, but has never quite idled smoothly from the start, although I had it rebuilt, I installed it in the car myself, lubed it with an electric drill on the oil pump prior to firing, ran it at high idle for 20 minutes to break it in, just as the mechanic had advised. After tearing apart the carb, and adjusting everything I could I gave up and took it back to the rebuilder, he was swamped so I took it to a shop next door. They told me that I have a flat spot on my cam-on #6 cylinder, possibly due to improper break in (even though I know I did it right). Told my rebuilder this and he told me to drive it for 500 miles and bring it back, (this is about the time that the Rotella oil thread was running and I switched over). Well a couple of weeks ago I brought it back to my mechanic, since it still is not right, and he fiddled with the valve train and said it was fixed, and runs fine. Well it is not- I know these cars can run like silk when done properly. I have an appointment next month with the shop next door, and fully expect to get to pay for a new camshaft all over again

I suspect I am one of the victims of this lubricant conspiracy. I just wish I knew about it 6 months earlier.

[linc64]

Todd, I'll be interested to see how your situation turns out. I'm going through the same thing!

[mechatech]

Here's a good discussion regarding this oil issue viewtopic.php?t=16392&highlight=

Ever notice how everything in the past 15 or so years is becoming twice as expensive but half as effective?

[tsa]

I have an article from an ex-Exxon oil specialist who now leads the research at the University of Maryland stating the same things and more.

I willl post up a brief rundown of it when I get home as it may add more. My reading was that it wasnt just for running in a new engine where you had to be concerned. And he recommends diesel rated oil.

[daveo]

Barry, Are full synthetics also a concern? I'm talking Mobil one Extended duty.

Does anyone make an "additive" that can be added to the new oil? that could be bought at an autoparts store?

[Barry Wolk]

Sounds like the simple solution is to buy diesel rated oils until this is worked out.

I know nothing about synthetics. I've always changed oil in my vehicles every 3,000 miles and once a year for my classic cars. I've never had an engine wear problem. I put 135,000 miles on a Mazda MP3 and I now have 125,000 on my '98 ML-320.

[daveo]

Barry, I'm trying to get more info on this issue. These top two links are from a few years ago.

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000073600.cfm

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000082247.cfm

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/t ... index.html

[LC67Vert]

I have always used Marvel Mystery Oil as an additive to my oil. I like it because it is light weight and I think it gets up in the valvetrain very quickly when starting a cold engine. Would Marvel this help prevent some of the problems mentioned in this thread?

[daveo]

Phew!! My Dodge v-8 pushrod engine has roller tappets. boy, that really scared me. Glad I can use the "new oil".

[KULTULZ]

Barry, Are full synthetics also a concern? I'm talking Mobil one Extended duty.

Does anyone make an "additive" that can be added to the new oil? that could be bought at an autoparts store?

http://highperformancepontiac.com/tech/ ... s_08_z.jpg

Available from GM dealers for about $10 per bottle, Engine Oil Supple-ment (E.O.S.) carries PN 1052367 and is a highly concentra-ted mixture of several key oil additives. It is designed to protect against piston scuffing and camshaft wear during the break-in period. But because of its heavy zinc and phosphorus content--which is advertised at no more than 5 percent by weight--and the increased risk of catalyst failure from it, GM officially advises that E.O.S. is not intended for long-term use.

There are also other additives discussed as well as synthetic on the referring URL to an earlier post discussing this problem. Simply put, modern engines do not need the zinc, whereas early style do. Because of the additional lubricity of synthetic, it should also (found no test results) provide the needed protection.

[daveo]

Thanks very much KULTULZ!

[hemichrysler]

Sounds like the simple solution is to buy diesel rated oils until this is worked out.

Is this because diesel rated oil has the zinc, or for some other reason ... ?

Now, I just changed the oil in 2 non-Lincolns...

In my 48 Daimler, which has a 2.5 gallon sump, I put a mineral oil mixture of straight weight 30 (diesel rated with minimum detergent), and multigrade 20w/50. Daimler recommended the straight weight 30, but multigrade was unavailable all those years ago. I have tried to cover the spectrum with a good mixture of oil viscosity. About 2/3 of what went in was 20w/50, but both oils were produced by the same manufacturer.

In my 58 Chrysler I put in 15w/40 semi-synthetic and a carton of Slick 50. Slick 50 is an additive for additional protection, and works best with synthetic type oils. It may be similar to Marvel Mystery, which was mentioned by LC67Vert, but I have not seen the MM.

I read about the zinc problem on another site, but none of the oil cartons had zinc information printed on their labels. In that respect I was zinc-blind in my choice of oils.

Any comments/reprimands most welcome!

RS

[mjabbasi]

Is this problem exclusively to rebuilt engines or original mileage ones too?

For my rebuilt T-Bird engine, I use a synthetic 10W 40 oil, although I may go back to 20W 50.

In my '62 and the Junagadh '63 LC, I'm using a 20W 50 oil made by Shell formulated 'For Older Car Engines' and so far have had no issues.

Its beginning to look like pretty soon there won't be many lubricants and fuels available that are friendly to classic cars. Already over here every gas station claims they are selling unleaded premium and hi-octane fuel, so I have no choice but to use those. In my car I use hi-octane only and in the '63, I sometimes use a mixture of premium and/or hi-octane.

Lead additives are scarcely available here and I realise these new unleaded fuels require hardened valves and seats, but what if your useage of the car is limited to say 2 to 3 times a month over short distances? Would such a valve job be required for that rate of useage?

[Barry Wolk]

Moin,

From what I understand, hardened valves and seats are no longer necessary. The lead in old gas formulas was a lubricant. When it was removed it was necessary to installed hardened valves and seats, but that is no longer the case.

The new formulas use another element to provide lubricant making lead unnecessary.