460 swap

[justin63]

I have recently purchased a 1963 sedan and am considering swaping the 430 for a 460 that has been bored out to a 514. I have found a horsepower shop in my area (seattle) that has the engine available, is there any questions I should ask or any facts I should know before going ahead with the engine transplant. The mechanic is charging me around $8500.

[Lugnut]

Theoretically one could do any engine swap they can think up. However, there are many, many things to consider which are not immediately apparent when contemplating putting a 460 in where a 430 is sitting dumb, fat, and happy.

The first of these is the existing transmission is not going to bolt up to a 460. Then comes the drive shaft. A C6 is not the same length as a Twin-Turbo Drive. Beyond that the shift linkages from the steering column are not going to be easily adaptable to a C6

Then let's go back to the engine compartment, the 430 has its firing chamber in the block not in the heads, which means the exhaust manifolds are going to be at a significantly different downward angle, creating clearance problems with a variety of things and a mating problem with the exhaust system.

Basically, it can be done if you have and are willing to spend a considerable amount of money (meaning in the thousands) to accomplish the swap. For probably about one third of what the swap will end up costing you could have one heck of a sweet 430. Think in terms of the swap is going to end up costing you $5,000 - $7,000 above the $8500, if not more before the dust settles on the whole thing and it may not end up being anything you would feel good about driving more than around the block.

[TonyC]

Lugnut's dead on target with this issue. It's not practical...possible, but not practical.

Lincoln managed to make the swap from the MEL to the 460 in the sucides late in the decade, yes; but they had to make drastic modifications to the transmission casing (luckily for them, they already switched over to C6) and the front end uniframe to make that thing fit. Even so, the early 460s are not exactly the same as the later ones because of that. And some sources claimed body integrity problems in those years that didn't exist before.

[justin63]

the existing 430 needs valve work so i would just go ahead with a complete rebuild and then probably go with fuel injection is there any modifications I could make to give it more horsepower i want this car to move( i know its 5000 lbs.)

[Lugnut]

One of the benefits of a 430 is they are among the most powerful engines ever put in a passenger car, regardless of displacement. In its original form it produced 375 hp and 490 lb/ft of torque. The engine in your car is rated at 315 hp and 465 lb/ft of torque. However, the '58 Lincoln was a wee bit heavier than the '63s. Point being the MEL block powered Lincolns could never be considered as being without a lot of punch and without enough power to get one enough tickets to wall paper a house.

Whether using a from of fuel injection would improve performance is highly doubtful as the option would be a form of Throttle Body fuel injection and could conceivably actually reduce performance. Anytime one gets into trying to boost horsepower on an engine the whole engine has to be taken into consideration. Not just the fuel delivery, cam, or exhaust system. Messing with any of these with an MEL block can create more problems than one can even begin to imagine due to the nature of valve timing being on the ragged edge from the git-go.

One thing is for sure, you'll never get enough change in horsepower or torque to burn rubber for half a block with a 5,000 plus pound car, but a good stock engine can run all day at 100 mph and not even be breathing hard. It can also give you whiplash if you punch it out at 25 or 30 mph.

[TonyC]

Dittos! There is hardly anything that one can do to a MEL to modify, save using 1958 components. There are no aftermarket components that are compatible, and (possibly) except for the wimpy TB injection, fuel injection is not possible. Truth be told, you don't need it. Fuel injection is used on wimpy engines to give them oomph, and usually, said oomphs are too highly tuned for such small blocks. The Carter carburetor on the '63 is the parent of the Edelbrock performance carburetors and will do the job very nicely. You can even get a certain model of Edelbrock carb and put it in with no serious mods, as long as you remember which side the fuel line goes into.

As Lug said, you won't chew up 'Vettes in quarter sprints. The MEL Lincoln comes into its own on the long stretch, top-end wise. Now, if you're going to be running from cops, you're wrong. If you need to outrun a homicidal truck driver, you can do it. The car is not designed for performance, so the fact that it can perform as it does, in my opinion, makes it more of a muscle car than most that have that name. If the MEL could be fitted into a smaller, lighter car, then you could give a 'Vette a sweat.

[dablack]

Justin,

If you want the thing to move, it really isn't a problem. You can put deaper rear gears in the 9". I don't know what is in there right now, but some 4.11s or some 4.30s would do nicely. Then you could spend the rest of your money on putting in a heavy duty AOD from Lentech which would give you overdrive and you wouldn't notice the gears on the highway. Do a search on AOD swaps. I know there is a kit out there. Doing it this way, you can pop the hood and it look completely stock, but it will lay rubber for a mile if you want.

Austin

[Lugnut]

There is not AOD that will bolt up to an MEL block without someone making a really strange adapter. There is nothing wrong with the Twin-Turbo Drive in the car. Has about 10 times the guts of any AOD built by anyone for any reason. Almost indestructible!

[KULTULZ]

I have recently purchased a 1963 sedan and am considering swaping the 430 for a 460 that has been bored out to a 514. I have found a horsepower shop in my area (seattle) that has the engine available, is there any questions I should ask or any facts I should know before going ahead with the engine transplant. The mechanic is charging me around $8500.

I can see an upgrade to a 460. But not a modified 460(514) that you are thinking about. That engine is built for serious performance in a much lighter chassis and you will find it very unsatisfactory in daily driving.

$8500.00 is quite a bit also. You would be better served to do as the last poster suggested, rebuild and re-gear. If you can see spending that kind of money for a new engine, a AOD swap will seem like nothing to you.

There are several TBI injections kits that will out perform any carburetor. That and electronic ignition and how carefully you go about the 430 rebuild and I think you will be very happy.

The 460 does offer MPI, but it was designed for light truck and you will have to use a different throttle body than was offered OEM. Of course this will give you an EEC-IV controlled engine which is a pleasure to drive.

If you need the source(s) of the TBI kits, let me know.

[dablack]

When I said kit, I meant adapter. Yes the adapter is made and the Lentech AOD can handle 800hp. Or you could go w/ a AODE and have a electronically controled overdrive and then you could adjust your shift point w/ a hand held controler.

I wouldn't suggest any of these things, but it is possible. For 7K or whatever he was going to pay for the swap, i would go get a little late 80s/ early 90 mustang for 4K and build from there. Keep the lincoln as a cruiser.

[Lugnut]

Keep the lincoln as a cruiser.

That's the best idea yet! Lincolns were never designed to be a weekend dragstrip entry. Attempting to make one such (outside of a Mark VII or Mark VIII) is sheer folly. We've never seen a Lincoln on the NASCAR circuit, which is the first clue they just ain't a race car.

[action]

We've never seen a Lincoln on the NASCAR circuit, which is the first clue they just ain't a race car.

Not exactly.

http://www.answerbag.com/c_view.php/964

Check out question # 5

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

[Lugnut]

Check out question # 5

Unfortunately they didn't note the specific years. I'm guessing but I'd be willing to bet the four Lincolns were between 1952 and 1956, the same general time period in which Lincoln dominated the Pan American Road Race. Those were the days of a stock car race being a race with "real stock" cars and not some modified something that doesn't even closely resemble any car an ordinary consumer can walk into the showroom and buy.

Lincoln did get real close to being used on the NASCAR circuit in 1996 though. The Andretti's took a stock Mark VIII, stripped the interior out, put in a NASCAR cage, and swapped the AOD for a stick shift to evaluate it on the Latrobe track. Their interest supposedly had something to do with the better push they figured they could get with Mark body shape verses the Taurus or the soon to be discontinued T-Bird bodies. Read someplace with the 100% stock engine it ran laps in the 190 mph range.

[dablack]

I would beleive it. I had a 97 mark VIII LSC and it went down the track just fine. Completly stock I ran 15.2. I put some pulleys, filter, and a shift kit and it ran 14.7.

I'm sure they would have to change the computer, but the same year cobra motor was the same one, so ford had a manual computer ready to go. W/ the lack of drag on that body and correct gearing, I'm sure it would hum.

I know for a fact they did salt flat testing w/ the early 90s mark VIII. They even left the auto. They changed the rear gears, took out the computers limiter, and took out overdrive and ran it in 3rd (1:1) which is the most effecient at transfering the power. I can't remimber what they got it up to, but it will surprise you. That project got cancelled as Lincoln didn't want a performance image. Now, every body wants a performance image and lincoln is trying to catch up.

Austin

[Jere DeBacker]

If I can put in my two cents. I have a '60 Mark V convertible and wanted to make it as driveable as possible. I replaced an old '59 manifold with a '63 and changed to PCV. I had the distributor completely rebuilt and a Pertronix electronic ignition installed under the dist. cap. Then replaced the old '59 carburetor with a brand new Edlebrock 1406. The car runs and drives like a dream, has way more power than the '59 carb. had and way way more than the original 2 barrel set up. Plus, the car will get up to 15 miles to the gallon - if I keep my foot out of it. I've driven it over 4000 miles in 10 months and going to 10,000 ft. altitude, it just flies along with the modern cars.
The only drawback is that the new '63 manifold puts the carburetor down lower and under the hood it doesn't look as tall and proud as the height of the old air cleaner setup, and I had to change the air intake to a later (shorter) model. Jere DeBacker